The state they chose to live in, and the laws they chose to be governed by? Yes.

Do i believe 5 OTHER countries should be allowed to say "we think what you're doing is wrong, and so we get to decide how you shall be punished"?

No.

Hope that clarifies.

If you mean if that state didn't have laws against it... Honestly, i'd be uncomfortable about it, but i'd stick to my position. The only reason i'm uncomfortable about it is because children, unlike adults, have *no* way of changing their situation.

However, i don't think i'm arrogant enough to know what is right - some of the greatest empires in history treated children in a way we would consider abusive today (abandoning them to wild animals to prove they are strong, refusing to provide them food and shelter at age 7 etc)

just because the thought of kids being mistreated makes *me* feel bad and uncomfortable, doesn't mean i suddenly think i have the right to make those decisions for other people. Hope that makes sense.

I'm a firm believer that everyone should come to their own decisions on morals and ethics. My decisions about this is based on evidence, not on any ethics i may follow.

Just because someone is educated, doesn't make them correct. There are things which educated people knew for a thousand years, that it turns out were wrong. Especially with something like raising a child, which is *never* an exact science, and always carries a heavy dose of opinion. Even at the top of the child psychology field there is no universal agreement on the correct way to raise a child

Just like even at the top end of international politcs etc there is no universal agreement on the correct course of action. My decision is based on history, and on my belief that if you solve a persons problems for them, they won't learn to solve their own problems. Interference from the outside is open to abuse, much better for people, and nations, to learn how to take care of their own problems. Throughout history that is what has happened, and historically speaking, interference doesn't usually end well.

Not sure how you got that from what i said to be honest. I said that if someone chooses to live in a place and be governed by those rules, then they have to follow them, but they shouldn't have to follow the rules of 5 other rulers whose nation they *DIDN'T* choose to live in. Clear enough now?

I feel the need to point to Karl's posts here; moral evils are completely subjective. I remove any possibility of that subjectivity affecting my decisions by sticking to a very simple policy: Don't interefere, period. I don't think i have the right to decide what is and is not correct. I've studied history enough to know opinions change on everything over time (Yes, even on things like genocide - Check a bible, when people thought that in certain situations, Genocide was justifiable) I am not arrogant enough to assume that i know best, that i am the supreme judge on all that is right and wrong.

I think people who take it upon themselves to decide which nations or rulers are being "evil" enough to warrant actions, are being rather arrogant, they must have extremely large opinions of their own intelligence to think that they know better than everyone else who has ever lived.

It's important to remember that some of the most intelligent people who ever lived had some very different morals to us, by declaring that your opinion on right or wrong is the "correct" opinion, you are entering dangerous territory, by placing yourself above some very great figures, thats not something i am arrogant enough to do

Try to avoid the tabloid sensationalism in your arguments please, but to answer your question, i'll have to repeat myself i suppose.

MORALS. ARE. SUBJECTIVE. okay, thats point one, it's a fact, indisputable.

Point two is this: SOCIAL. MORALS. CHANGE. Even within different countries, what is considered paedophilia changes. In amerca sex with a 14 year old is paedophilia, in spain it's legal. Some cultures have and had marriages between 12 year olds and grown adults. Do i presume that iam *SO MUCH BETTER* than them to tell them my way is best? No, i don't. I'm not that arrogant.

Just because you think that YOUR morals are the perfect collection of morals does NOT make it true, it just makes you arrogant enough to believe you are correct and the billions of people throughout history who have disagreed with you are wrong.

I notice you completely side stepped that point. If educated people are so much more correct than everyone else, why is it that every single educated person is wrong every single day about something? Advances aren't made by people who believe whatever the person who taught them told them. Advances are made by people who think "Maybe this is wrong, lets find out" Assuming you are right because you are "educated" Is the sign of a fool, because if it was true, we wouldn't be disproving things and advancing in science etc every single day now, would we?

Once upon a time they WERE morally correct. See my first answer for more.

Yes, and if you look at ANY field of science, especially the newer fields, you'll find HUNDREDS of accepted truths which, it turns out, were false If you need examples, just ask.

See above answers. Majority opinion isn't what leads to progress. It's the people who think majority opinion is wrong and set about proving it that advance science's, not the people who say "oh i was taught this, so this is correct."

The world wars involved so many countries because the agressors attacked countries with pre-existing defence treaties etc. Those countries were smart enough to, beforehand, set those treaties up. They done that for themselves, no one forced them to

Assuming you can count the korean war as a "victory" for interference (which is VERY debateable) That leaves 2 examples of interference helping. You're an educated person, do you want me to list 10 times in the 20th centure it hasn't helped, or do you already know them and are choosing to ignore them?

If they leave it till that point is reached, no it isn't. But aside from children (which i said in my previous post is a very unfortunate side effect to my belief on this) Adults will have that chance at some point. It's just about them taking it when it comes, and not holding on.

Please take a read at the debate fallacies thread, thanks

Well than that's where we differ. You think you people can decide whats best for other people. I think thats far too much power to put in peoples hands. . To use the examples you've been using, that means that the church were right in all those crusades and executions over the years since they were the "educated" ones on this stuff, or they were right to burn "witches"...

Education is, in itself, subjective. You are learning what other people want you to know. If thats incorrect, you wouldn't be able to tell because of your attitude of "i am educated, and thus correct" The people who go in assuming they DON'T know anything (see the greek philosopher socrates for instance) are the ones who become great and knowledgeable. Not the ones who think they know everything because someone else told them it

Such as?
Lets run down the list quickly

Racism - has been fine (see... America)
Killing - has been fine (see... Any war)
Cannabalism - has been fine (see... South American tribes)
Genocide - has been fine (see... The bible)
Rape - has been fine (see... The victors of almost any ancient war)

So exactly what "moral evils" haven't been fine at one time in one place or another? Please give examples of your blanket statement Thanks.


Lets start with someone who was intelligent in every field, who was ahead of his time in everything that he studied then shall we? Aristotle. Your morals don't match his, and you are saying your morals are correct. Since Aristotle actively STUDIED morals etc, by your reckoning that makes YOU wrong. So by your reasoning, since Aristotle knows more about it than you, you are wrong, and he is right, oui?

If not, well then you just contradicted yourself in a big way, didn't you? Or are you going to ry to find some way to "qualify" your statement so that doesn't apply?

Thanks for that useful inclusion to the debate...


Honestly, all i have seen from you, is you saying "My way is correct, and thats because i'm educated" Which means you are readily saying that someone who has more education than you in that field, is more correct in you. Since you don't have a whole lot of education in Human Morals and Moral Changes Throughout History, why are you still assuming that you are correct?

I'm going to make one last point here

Different cultures have different definitions of what is allowed in regards to this. Some thing it's fine to look at pictures etc of naked young boys/girls. Some think sex with 14 or even 12 year olds is okay. What makes you SO much better than those cultures, that YOUR definition of "moral evil" is superior to theirs? By the definition of your country, they are all paedophiles, no? For an objective moral evil, it sure is very SUBJECTIVE isn't it?


You believe you know best and you should get to decide the future of other people because you are "educated"

I believe thats bullshit and thats what LEADS to people being ruled by dictators who "know whats best" for the people.

lets leave it at that, shall we?

Since your idea of debating is to say things like and