Should we feel guilty for history? - Page 3

June 7, 2008, 8:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erythritol

As much as I'd love to believe all of that, I can't. I don't think the human race has really matured very much, if at all. We've just learned to cover our tracks better so we appear more sophisticated and civilized. The Holocaust was only 60 or so years ago, and it occured in a western, 'civilized' nation. The ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and crimes against humanity carried out by the Japanese also only occured 60 years ago. That's barely any time at all. I could give you a hideous laundry list of countries and leaders guilty of ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide within the past 50 years. How about what's happening right now in Darfur, or Zimbabwe, or even Myanmar? The international reaction to any of these situations has been inadequate at best (though I suppose Myanmar is a difficult situation). Countless times, the United States has stood by and done NOTHING as tyranical regimes commit atrocity after atrocity. Sometimes the United States even BACKS the regime!

So maybe we have come a bit of a ways since the Roman circus days, but I wouldn't be patting the human race on the back quite yet. :/

Hmm.

I find myself agreeing with alot of that. However, I do think that many individual cultures have moved on. Moreover, the general public moral consensus and perception has changed in many ways. In the eighteenth century, most (straight) people would believe that "justice" had been done, if they'd heard that one thousand homosexuals had been hung. Many more people percieved homosexuals as sodomites condemned and hated by God, who deserved execution. Obviously, that majority consensus has changed, especially in first world nations, but also in some second world nations. In third world countries, where conditions are poor; and very few have access to good education, intolerance, for one, tends to be even more extreme. There is a correlation between education and social tolerance, in many ways.

You still get intolerant people of various creeds all around the world, definitely. Those people often irrationally fear those who are different to them, or may have inherited their prejudice, etc. It's too early to tell whether or not their views will change.

However, popular intolerance and prejudice still exist. Nowadays, alot of people don't care if you are gay or black, but will still judge someone upon socio-economic class, size, etc. I believe that western society has largely moved on, but there are still those issues where the majority of people are quick to judge others. Say "fat", and many people will subconsciously think "unhealthy" and "lazy". Irrational judgement. Perhaps some things might be justified by science, and this is why the majority thinks that, in this case. We are limited by knowledge, after all. People don't think to question science.
Yet nothing defies nature, just what we know of it. Science should always be questioned, that is what it is about.

Human knowledge and technology has definitely advanced, and I believe that many cultures have matured thanks to increased knowledge and hindsight, but that's about it.
There are various types of people and cultures, and also various scientific theories which can contradict each other. Science and culture can also clash.

As for the holocaust, well... would it have happened if Hitler hadn't come to power? I think not. He managed to make a whole nation believe that Jews were responsible for all the world's ills. It was what people wanted to hear, not what was true. One might be tempted to believe that the masses are irrational, and easy to control if you know the right emotional triggers. What's frightening is how many times such a belief has been proven true.

June 7, 2008, 8:56 PM

We're making history now, and not a very good one. As the global warming goes on, there are many people in world who don't give a shit. This I'd say is worst thing in our history. Other events have taught us lessons, so I wouldn't feel guilty about things such as war. Exccept the fact that many people died.

June 7, 2008, 9:46 PM

Global warming? I'm not sure what to think of it. The mass media constantly states as fact that humans are responsible for global warming, and may always say that "we have always said that humans are responsible for global warming."
The climate change movement is above reason and logic now, apparently.
Anyone with contrary evidence is condemned as being on the payroll of the oil companies. Even legitimate evidence is condemned and shunned. Is it not reasonable to debate such things? It appears that once something reaches a consensus, it will take something drastic for that view to be challenged by mainstream society. I have seen certain arguments which claim that global warming is not caused by CO2, and I think that such points should be put up for general discussion. However, they won't unless people are made aware of such arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial

There is strong science which suggests, at the very least, that human activity is responsible for speeding global warming up, true. However, we should take a rational approach. The argument that CO2 is all bad is, quite simply, a lie. Plants need it for photosynthesis, and without it, we would all be dead. Why not plant more trees, for starters? Use carbon scrubbers? It is all good and well caring about the planet, but there is a mass hysteria over it. Just another example of human irrationality. It works both ways, however. Yes, we should take precautions. Yes, we should take caution. No, CO2 is not a pollutant, and CO2 emission is not inherently bad. It is too often used as a scapegoat, just like obesity.

Should we feel guilty for global warming? No. We would never have advanced technologically without using fossil fuels.

Is global warming the worst threat that faces humanity? Definitely not, just like obesity and communism were never threats to the human race, but threats to a particular group, and particular interests. Okay, maybe climate change is slightly more of a threat than that. It threatens third world nations, coastal settlements, and islands especially. However, it has always happened, and allegedly, there have been times during human existence when the earth was actually warmer than it is now, and we didn't die out. Excessive CO2 is actually much less harmful to the environment than alot of toxic pollutant chemicals which we use.

We're going about this the wrong way.

June 9, 2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laro

We're making history now, and not a very good one. As the global warming goes on, there are many people in world who don't give a shit. This I'd say is worst thing in our history. Other events have taught us lessons, so I wouldn't feel guilty about things such as war. Exccept the fact that many people died.

I basically agree with the above post by Cancer Man on this topic. While we certainly aren't making it any better, I really don't think we're the main cause. You think this it the first time in the history of the world that the temperature has risen or fallen? Right. You do realize there have been SEVERAL little ice ages throughout the centuries, followed by periods of warming, right? That's completely natural.

And the worst thing that humans have ever done? Why? Because cute widdle polar bears are dying? I really just LOVE how everyone always gives a shit about the animals, but when people-- including millions of CHILDREN-- are suffering and dying, it's not really a concern. I'm not saying animals aren't important, but sorry, people come first as far as I'm concerned. Global warming-- though I truly believe it's not really caused by humans-- is NOT the worst we have done. And how have other events like genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity taught us any kind of lesson? I'd even argue that many wars have taught us nothing. So many pointless wars have been waged due to vanity and greed. And I know it's a common belief that one should know history or else one is doomed to repeat it...but that's probably why I find studying history is so pointless. We DO know our history, and we HAVE repeated it. I think humans will continue repeating it until the end of time. Maybe I'm being cynical.

June 10, 2008, 12:26 AM

Learning it isn't the problem; it's learning it and ignoring it. Unfortunately, some people just don't learn. That's the way it is. You can teach a class history, and some people will understand the problems that people have repeated in the past; other people have no interest in it, and may be doomed to repeat the past they never learned or they simply fail to recognize the consequences from the past.

But I think history repeats itself because we don't all think alike. This is an unfortunate consequence which bites itself in the ass; if we all think the same way, we'd all be the same and would be boring. But if we think differently, there is variety and diversity, and we may benefit from it, but there's also the unfortunate possibility that our differences cannot be reconciled. I would like to think that they can, but such an approach is not accepted by those who think much differently from we who desire peace and compromise.

But it's not like I'm involving myself into these matters particularly deeply anyways.

July 10, 2008, 5:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmon

There are certain points in history where things happened that are considered reprehensible and barbaric by most of modern society. Slavery, racism, genocide, sexism, etc. We would be none too proud if such things happened today. However, back then, all were considered acceptable and a part of every day life by one mainstream group or another, due to socio-cultural perceptions. We can't change the past. Should we feel guilty that it happened, and apologise for the actions of our ancestors? Should we brand all of them barbaric in comparison to us, for that which they believed was rational and justified by their view?

It is true that society has moved on, that we know alot more, understand alot more, and that the outlook of most people has changed, due to increased knowledge, understanding, and tolerance. However, we still stand on the shoulders of our forefathers, and without the achievements of ages past, we wouldn't be here.
We have more understanding, and an understanding of why such things happened, and should look at the past in hindsight. We shouldn't whitewash history and take every chance to condemn our ancestors as savages out of guilt, but look at it rationally. Our ancestors had different world views and less understanding, and we are really in no position to apologise for what is no longer in living memory.

Thoughts?

History is...History! We should learn it, and move on.

Not really much to say...

- Kuja

July 11, 2008, 7:53 PM

No. They're not our actions. We can atone for the sins of our ancestors if we want to but I don't think we should be obligated to do so. I wouldn't because I wasn't responsible for any of it.

July 27, 2008, 4:05 PM

Alot of those things are still done in your generation of today , and by choice. Blame the ancestors or blame the people of today but a lot of those things are still being done today.

July 28, 2008, 1:22 AM

No, definitely not. It's a lot like the monstrous concept of original sin. Just as one is supposedly born evil, so too does "historical guilt" place a standard of evil on a person, as opposed to a standard of value. And to punish a man with guilt for something he committed before birth is an absolute perversion of justice. In this reality, no innocence exists because everyone is born with the weight of their ancestors actions on their shoulders.

Todays Germans for example, are not guilty of concentration camps or invading foreign countries, todays Americans and Canadians are not guilty of exterminating the then-natives to North America. We are born with a clean slate, to say otherwise is perverted and is against all reason. There is a common racist meme throughout history that says people can be "proud of what their race/culture/nation has accomplished" as if it were some kind of team effort they participated in, it is an absolute absurdity and conflicts with the individualism that bred the amazing people who invented and created such wonderful things and will continue to do so.