Put 9/11 Behind Us - Page 3

September 13, 2008, 9:59 PM

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Originally Posted by ~Lightning~

I, for one, used to think of America as the safest country in the world. Before 9/11, the thought of someone attacking us seemed absurb. After that awful tragedy occurred though, the way I thought about things completely changed. It opened my eyes and showed me that I had taken everything I had in this country for granted, and that something as awful as terrorists attacking could and would happen.

A lot of people thought that, and therein lies some of the problem. To think that we are completely free of the minute possibility of some kind of attack is absurd to ME, but I don't have to live with the fear that it will happen day in and day out. It's best to acknowledge the fact rather than to assume out of ignorance that we are safe because it's simply not true.

And although 9/11 was a tragic day, it's something we should keep in the back of our minds; if not only for the fact that it could happen again (or something of similar proportion).

September 13, 2008, 11:58 PM

Well with the quotes from the Qu'ran you presented, Katsky, one has to remember the context which the Qu'ran was written in. The arab lands were divided into tribes, unorganised, before Muhammad arrived, and people were worshiping all sorts of things. Muhammad decided he wanted to unite the land, and a strong single religion and code was a good way of doing so. He was conducting a religious and military campaign across the arab lands, but eventually conquered and established Islam. The violent elements of the Qu'ran may mostly be connected with its purpose at the time, trying to enforce itself. Most modern Muslims don't use these passages anymore as they have little relevance now. These views are not realy all there is to Islam, the actual beliefs they hold dear to them are relatively peaceful, and no more extreme than the views of Christianity. That's how I've viewed it anyway.

Books like the Qu'ran, while presenting religious views and foundation stones for religion, all have some sort of political or opportunist agenda (the Bible included). So really not all passages can be expected to apply.

Extremists however love these passages, and milk them and twist them for all that they are worth. Most of the time terrorists are angry young men who are angry with the world, and want some sort of religious justification for their actions so that they can be regarded (even if only in like minded twisted minds) as heroes. Also, like said, not all terrorists are Muslim.

About 9/11, I do think it should be remembered. It is a landmark event. It shocked me when it occured and was my first realy terrible experience of viewing on TV/ hearing about a catastrophic tragedy in my lifetime. It made me feel angry. I'm British, but I do think it should be remembered, perhaps not on the same level as rememberance day, but as the day that shocked the world. Even among terrorist attacks it was pretty much a landmark event.

The london bombings really, really angered me. It REALLY affected me, and I did not lose anyone in that incident, have anyone injured that I knew, nor did I have any relatives anywhere near London at the time. But the heart and soul of my country was attacked. I think that event should be remembered in this country because it shocked our country, affected our country, in a way made us a little bit stronger, and come together a little bit more (I say a little bit more because most of the time a chestnut is probably more patriotic to this country than some of it's inhabbitants...).
But.. back on topic, the London Bombings were terrible, but nothing on the scale of 9/11. If I felt so battered by the July attacks in London I can't imagine how Americans were feeling when the airplanes hit the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. That wasn't just a day the Americans stood still though, the whole world did. Everybody was shocked, as far as I recall. It is a peice of world history, and a big peice of world history. It does deserve to be remembered and mourned in my opinion.

September 14, 2008, 2:52 AM

I'm going to ahead and skip reading some posts and just respond to a few things that caught my eye

Katsky: It seems you aren't too familiar with Saudi Arabia or the profile of the hijackers. It is true that Saudi Arabia is a fabulously rich country due to oil and that citizens are afforded the luxury of not paying tax. However, there are great disparities in wealth and privilege. The Saudi Arabian system is very corrupt and basically, the only way to move ahead is to know someone (or bribe someone, I guess). Yes, it is true that the hijackers were not impoverished, but they were far from happy. They were university educated but they were also disillusioned with the corrupt system and disappointed by the lack of opportunities. Obviously this does not excuse what they did, but if one looks at their history, it is easier to understand why they turned to radical Islam as a means of escape from disillusionment and disappointment.

I also want you to understand that Islam is NOT Islamism. They are completely different things. Islam is a religion. Islamism is a radical school of thought that perverts Islam completely. To give just one example: Osama Bin Laden twice issued a fatwa on the United States. Now only an Isliamic scholar may issue a fatwa and Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic scholar. Islamism is more politically motivated than religiously motivated. Islam is not a violent religion. Unfortunately, there are radical groups in the middle east who commit violence in the name of Islam and give it a bad reputation. On the whole, however, Muslims are very peaceful. Please do not make such ignorant statements about Islam.

I do think 9/11 should be remembered, but I think it's turning into a bit of an obsession. On the eleventh, for the entire day, there were just programs about the Twin Towers. It's just becoming a bit of a cult of victimization. Should it be remembered? Yes. Should it be obsessed over? No. It's a little much.

September 14, 2008, 3:10 AM

Lulz at America being the safest country. I'm not being anti-American but that's just arrogant and completely untrue.
My country is so much safer.
Moving on, I agree with what Eryth said. 9/11 is a tragedy. But so is a whole heap of other stuff. It happened 7 years ago and you people can't let it go. Politicians keep bringing up 9/11 and so do a lot of other people.
It should be remembered, but not constantly brought up so the US can feel like a victim. Which it isn't, it's had a presence in the Middle East since the 1948, and it shamelessly supports Israel.

Meh, I don't think it should be forgotten, but it is time to move on. And focus on the future rather than the past.
Also certain people seem to think that all Radical Islamists are terrorists. Which is bullshit. 99% of them are peaceful people, infact a lot of them are women. We can blame terrorism on Islam because that is wrong, so we blame it on fundamentalists, which is equally as wrong.

September 14, 2008, 4:27 AM

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Katsky: It seems you aren't too familiar with Saudi Arabia or the profile of the hijackers. It is true that Saudi Arabia is a fabulously rich country due to oil and that citizens are afforded the luxury of not paying tax. However, there are great disparities in wealth and privilege. The Saudi Arabian system is very corrupt and basically, the only way to move ahead is to know someone (or bribe someone, I guess).

I never said that this wasn't the case.

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Yes, it is true that the hijackers were not impoverished, but they were far from happy.

That was my whole point.

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They were university educated but they were also disillusioned with the corrupt system and disappointed by the lack of opportunities.

Yeah, and that's why they blew up the Saudi Palace. Oh wait...

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Obviously this does not excuse what they did, but if one looks at their history, it is easier to understand why they turned to radical Islam as a means of escape from disillusionment and disappointment.

Go on...?

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I also want you to understand that Islam is NOT Islamism. They are completely different things.

Yeah, Islamism is political implementation of the Quran.

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Islam is a religion. Islamism is a radical school of thought that perverts Islam completely.

Oh okay, because you know, I thought Islam was already perverted when I quoted the Quran with those random excerpts.

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Islamism is more politically motivated than religiously motivated. Islam is not a violent religion.

Nah, only every Muslim country has draconian laws and violent cruel law enforcement, but it's not because they're Muslim. Oh and there's these awesome random quotes from the Quran again.

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A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... If they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.--2:191

Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah--2:193

One who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you.--2:194

Those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. ... Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.--2:257

Choose not friends from them [unbelievers]. ... Take them and kill them wherever ye find them.--4:89

Take them [unbelivers] and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.--4:91

The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.--4:101

Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?--4:144

Marry of the women two, or three, or four.--4:3

Women who are guilty of lewdness ... confine them to the houses until death take them.--4:15

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other. ... So good women are the obedient. ... As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.--4:34

Unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.--4:176
The Children of Israel ... We have cursed them and made hard their hearts--5:12-13

Christians ... We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection.--5:14

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.--5:33

Those who disbelieve ... Theirs will be a painful doom.--5:36

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. ... An exemplary punishment from Allah.--5:38

The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation.--5:45

Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.--5:51

The Jews ... We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection.--5:64

Many a generation We destroyed ... and created after them another generation.--6:6

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.--7:4

They who deny Our revelations and scorn them - each are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.--7:36

I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.--8:12

For disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.--8:14

Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve.--8:35

(The disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.--8:65

Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.--9:5

Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.--9:23

The Jews ... and the Christians ... Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!--9:30

On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith--9:35

O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.--9:73

A painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.--9:90

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you--9:123

The reward of disbelievers is the Fire.--13:35

Thou wilt see the guilty on that day linked together in chains, Their raiment of pitch, and the Fire covering their faces.--14:49-50

How many generations have We destroyed since Noah!--17:17

There is not a township but We shall destroy it ere the Day of Resurrection, or punish it with dire punishment.--17:58

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron.--22:19-21

The fire burneth their faces, and they are glum therein.--23:104

Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, o ... or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour.... And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.--24:31

Never be a helper to the disbelievers.--28:86

Obey not the disbelievers--33:1

He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.--33:26

O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. ... Stay in your houses.--33:32-3

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad).--33:59

And if We will, We drown them, and there is no help for them, neither can they be saved;--36:43

Those who argue concerning Allah ... wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.--42:16

(And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water.--44:47-48
Those who disbelieve will deny ... give them tidings of a painful doom.--84:22-24

Whoso ... disbelieveth Allah will punish him with direst punishment.--88:23

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Unfortunately, there are radical groups in the middle east who commit violence in the name of Islam and give it a bad reputation. On the whole, however, Muslims are very peaceful. Please do not make such ignorant statements about Islam.

Yeah, peaceful people. Paris riots, London bombings, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, the constant Shia/Sunni violence in Iraq, the Mujahideen, etc... Oh, and the 10,000 + other terrorist attacks carried out around the world since 9/11. I mean let's look at just the last few days-

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9/13/2008 (New Delhi, India) - Islamists detonate bombs at five marketplaces withing a 30-minute span, massacring dozens of innocent people.

9/13/2008 (Yitzhar, Israel) - A Palestinian terrorist stabs a 9-year-old Israeli boy five times, then throws him from a balcony.

9/13/2008 (Logar, Afghanistan) - The Taliban murder a local governor with a bomb attack on his vehicle.

9/12/2008 (Dujail, Iraq) - Over thirty Shias are blown to Allah by bombs detonated by radical Sunnis at a marketplace.

9/12/2008 (Sinjar, Iraq) - Sunnis bomb a Shia mosque, killing three attendees.

9/12/2008 (Farah, Afghanistan) - Eight people are blasted to death at point-blank range with automatic weapons during a Taliban ambush.

TRULY this is a religion of peace.

September 14, 2008, 6:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Katsky

Yeah, and that's why they blew up the Saudi Palace. Oh wait...

No, because that's not who they blame. Just because that's who you believe is to blame, it does not mean that they share your view. It's impossible to fully understand a culture through an ethnocentric viewpoint. Many of their grievances can be traced back to-- so they believe-- imperialism and westernization. As a result, they target the west.

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Go on...?

Okay. Many of the hijackers (if not all) were upset at the situation in the middle east (well, who wouldn't be?) The middle east is...well, it's sort of complicated. There are different ways that middle easterners can identify themselves. They can either be nationalist (ie: identify as Saudi Arabians); they can identify as Arabs (or any other ethnic group); they can identify as Muslims. Breaking down that last group, they can also identify as Shiite or Sunni. These men clearly did not believe in nationalism and were upset and disillusioned with the social infrastructure. Now, Islamist groups are not stupid, far from it. They prey on the disappointments and religious aspects of these men. I really believe what they do is a form of brain-washing (well, for some). They tell these disappointed and somewhat aimless men that they can die for a cause and become heroes. Remember that not all of these men are wealthy. For their sacrifice, their families will be compensated and they will die a very honorable death (in their eyes). Faced with such a choice, it's not hard to see why they pick Islamism. In a way, it mirrors the gangs in bad parts of cities. There are these kids who have faced horrible hardships all their lives and believe that they are going nowhere, so they join a gang because it's the easiest thing to do. It gives them some sort of direction.

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Yeah, Islamism is political implementation of the Quran.

No. It is not. This is an example of your ignorance of the middle east. Here, this is copied off wiki, because I'm lazy:

Islamism (Islam+ism; Arabic: al-'islāmiyya) is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system; that modern Islam must return to the roots of its religion, and Muslims must unite politically

There is a large difference between Islamism and Islam. Islamism is very politically motivated. You think that the Taliban just wants everyone to be a good Muslim? Hell no! You don't need to take over an entire country to do that, now do you? I was talking to a guy from Afghanistan who was infuriated that some people believe that the Taliban represents Islam. They do not. Radical Islamists organizations are NOT representative of Islam.

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Oh okay, because you know, I thought Islam was already perverted when I quoted the Quran with those random excerpts.

Oh please. I could go through the Bible and do the same thing. Every religion has violent parts in it. You know why? They were all written in relatively violent and tumultuous times. If you actually knew Islam, you'd understand that there are five very important pillars in Islam to which every good Muslim adheres. These five pillars are: worshipping no other god, ritual prayer, charity, fasting during Ramadan, and a pilgrimage to Mecca. Yeah. Real violent.

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Nah, only every Muslim country has draconian laws and violent cruel law enforcement, but it's not because they're Muslim. Oh and there's these awesome random quotes from the Quran again.

Oops, there we go with the ethnocentricism again. Not every country is America or Australia. I'm sorry; that's not how the world works. You find European laws and government much more pleasing because it follows your beliefs and your culture. That's natural. Do some middle eastern countries have problems? Yes, they do. That much is obvious. However, it is unfair to blame that on Islam. And dear god, I hope you do not refer to Saddam Hussein, because he was a Ba'ath party member, and they are secular. That means his rule was nationalist and had nothing to do with Islam or Islamism. So that shoots down that theory of yours. You want to know the real issue in the middle east? It's not Islam. It's the fact that European powers ever so kindly invaded the middle east in the 1800s and played the imperialists, dividing the middle east into false borders (what we see today) and putting ethnic groups that do not necessarily get along together. As a result, there were power grabs and oppressing different ethnic or religious groups for whatever reason. There was also the failure of westernization in many of the middle eastern countries that led to disillusion and movements towards either pan-Arabism or Islamism. There were, of course, secular nationalist movements-- like the Ba'ath party in Iraq. However, I can tell you right now that Islam is not the problem. If I were to point fingers, I'd primarily point at western Europe and their brilliant border drawing skills.

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Yeah, peaceful people. Paris riots, London bombings, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, the constant Shia/Sunni violence in Iraq, the Mujahideen, etc... Oh, and the 10,000 + other terrorist attacks carried out around the world since 9/11. I mean let's look at just the last few days-

Okay, clearly you like to make broad and racist generalizations without truly comprehending the situation. And that breeds ignorance. Ignorance is not a good thing.

Paris riots: that was a race and poverty issue. And quite frankly, they aren't well treated in Paris. They are second class citizens, constantly harassed by the police, and looked down upon. I've seen it first-hand. That was not a matter of religion, but a matter of second-class citizens trying to riot against the unfair treatment at the hands of the French.

All the terrorist attacks you mentioned: They are NOT Islam-related. They are radical Islamist groups. Until you understand the distinction, you don't quite know what you're talking about. Islamism is politically motivated and hides behind the shroud of religion. Remember the very important five pillars I mentioned? Do you think any of these groups are very charitable? Yeah, didn't think so. Okay, since you want to use quotes, I'll use some too.

"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (II:62).

"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (CIX: 6)

This is NOT a religion thing. You think they hate us because it says so in the Koran? No! You think they hate Israel because they're Jewish? No! It's political. But because Islam is such an essential part of the Arab world and is so universal in the Islamic world, it is a good appeal to people. Why? Because then they can promise martyrdom and a glorious death and a wonderful heaven. Promising this to people who are poor or directionless or disillusioned is VERY appealing.

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TRULY this is a religion of peace.

I think I've made my point.

September 14, 2008, 7:59 AM

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No. It is not. This is an example of your ignorance of the middle east. Here, this is copied off wiki, because I'm lazy:

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Islamism (Islam+ism; Arabic: al-'islāmiyya) is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system; that modern Islam must return to the roots of its religion, and Muslims must unite politically

That's exactly what I said, the implementation of the Quran as a social doctrine.

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Oh please. I could go through the Bible and do the same thing.

Of coarse you could. But I challenge you to find violent and cruel teachings in the New Testament.

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If you actually knew Islam, you'd understand that there are five very important pillars in Islam to which every good Muslim adheres. These five pillars are: worshipping no other god, ritual prayer, charity, fasting during Ramadan, and a pilgrimage to Mecca. Yeah. Real violent.

I do know the five pillars. But to Muslims the Quran is the word of God, not just the inspired word of God as is the Bible to Jews and Christians. It was written by God/Allah himself. While Christians and Jews are able to debate the passages of the Bible/Talmud/etc... Muslims are forbidden by Islamic law to debate the word of God. The one God they believe in surely is a sick asshole.

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They were all written in relatively violent and tumultuous times.

God must have been really pissed at something when he wrote the beautiful Quran.

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You find European laws and government much more pleasing because it follows your beliefs and your culture.

Yeah because all cultures are truly equal. The mud huts of Africa and the backward tribalism that we see in Darfur is just their culture, it isn't inferior to ours in any way.

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And dear god, I hope you do not refer to Saddam Hussein, because he was a Ba'ath party member, and they are secular

I know a little about the Ba'ath regime, and more or less sympathized with various policies of Assad and to an extent Hussein himself. But even regarding the secularism of the Ba'ath party (which was run by European educated Arabs) it still didn't stop the backward sectarian fighting between the Sunnis and Shias did it? Their society is inherantly backwards.

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and putting ethnic groups that do not necessarily get along together.

So, you'll defend a multiracial western society, but when it comes to non-caucasian societies, it's totally cool to be ethno-separatist.

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Okay, clearly you like to make broad and racist generalizations without truly comprehending the situation. And that breeds ignorance. Ignorance is not a good thing.

How are Muslims a race?

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Paris riots: that was a race and poverty issue. And quite frankly, they aren't well treated in Paris. They are second class citizens, constantly harassed by the police, and looked down upon. I've seen it first-hand. That was not a matter of religion, but a matter of second-class citizens trying to riot against the unfair treatment at the hands of the French.

They segregate themselves. They refuse to speak French and integrate into French society, in fact they should be booted out, nevermind be "treated as second class citizens".