What do YOU believe? - Page 5

August 1, 2008, 2:47 AM

Well, I personally think lots of religions are absurd, but you're not changing what people believe in by spitting on what they believe. I will not allow religious intolerance in this forum.

As for what classifies as religion, that should be stuff that you actively believe in without any evidence. However, since atheists don't believe in God, and you can't believe a negative, and you don't believe in stuff you don't know, you may consider atheism and agnosticism as not being a religion. Deists, on the other hand, have no evidence for believing in a god; they just do.

August 1, 2008, 3:02 AM

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Well, I personally think lots of religions are absurd, but you're not changing what people believe in by spitting on what they believe. I will not allow religious intolerance in this forum.

How am I being intolerant?

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As for what classifies as religion, that should be stuff that you actively believe in without any evidence.

That's called Faith. Religion comes from the latin religio which means "to bind", or to bring people together and essentially in modern usage, religion can be any number of things, a political ideology, a movement, etc... Deism doesn't bring people together in any way because it is one simple singular belief and not a system or dogma or what have you.

August 2, 2008, 12:45 AM

Okay, I guess I phrased that wrong, but the way you're putting across your criticisms of other people's religions has no place in this thread and is irrelevant to what you choose to believe in. If you want to go ahead and criticize other people for not being agnostic or atheist, go right ahead and make a thread on it, or focus it around why you choose not to believe in such things rather than saying why other people shouldn't believe. Otherwise you're basically telling people what to do with their lives, which is not really any of your business unless they're your personal friends or something. But I will tell you this now: you'd better not have any intentions of making such a thread for the sake of changing people's religions. People may believe in things that don't make sense to you. It's not really your problem if they do.

The term "religion" is commonly used to refer to "organized" religion, in the sense of what people's personal beliefs are, particularly that concerning gods, or a god. The fact that I use such a term "religion" to refer to this definition, and the fact that you are twisting what I am using (and what other people commonly refer to this as) is mere sophistry. Otherwise, you will also have to concede that Scientology is a religion, as are many other fanatical cults. The fact that a word has Latin roots does not necessarily mean that the English usage of such a word retains the same meaning.

The only condition imposed on being a deist is that you believe in a god who has no interference on the universe at all, except for its creation. Just because there's only one condition for this belief does not mean it can't be a religion; it very much does involve a god.

August 2, 2008, 4:13 AM

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Okay, I guess I phrased that wrong, but the way you're putting across your criticisms of other people's religions has no place in this thread and is irrelevant to what you choose to believe in. If you want to go ahead and criticize other people for not being agnostic or atheist, go right ahead and make a thread on it, or focus it around why you choose not to believe in such things rather than saying why other people shouldn't believe.

I guess you're right, I have a terrible tendency to derail any thread towards blatant criticism. Sorry.

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Otherwise you're basically telling people what to do with their lives, which is not really any of your business unless they're your personal friends or something. But I will tell you this now: you'd better not have any intentions of making such a thread for the sake of changing people's religions.

It is not my primary objective to "change" his religious belief as such, rather to question his reasoning for believing it.

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The term "religion" is commonly used to refer to "organized" religion, in the sense of what people's personal beliefs are, particularly that concerning gods, or a god. The fact that I use such a term "religion" to refer to this definition, and the fact that you are twisting what I am using (and what other people commonly refer to this as) is mere sophistry.

No, it really isn't. From wikipedia -

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A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law.

Does Deism qualify as this? No.

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Otherwise, you will also have to concede that Scientology is a religion,

It is, but it's also a dangerous one.

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as are many other fanatical cults.

Well yeah...

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The fact that a word has Latin roots does not necessarily mean that the English usage of such a word retains the same meaning.

Refer to wikipedia article.

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The only condition imposed on being a deist is that you believe in a god who has no interference on the universe at all, except for its creation.

Although they are a minority, there are Deists who believe in an anthropomorphic God. It's not a dogma.

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Just because there's only one condition for this belief does not mean it can't be a religion; it very much does involve a god.

Again, from wikipedia-

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Deism is a sub-category of theism, in that both entail belief in a deity. Like theism, deism is a basic belief upon which religions can be built.

August 2, 2008, 5:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Katsky

I guess you're right, I have a terrible tendency to derail any thread towards blatant criticism. Sorry.

It is not my primary objective to "change" his religious belief as such, rather to question his reasoning for believing it.

But that's not the purpose of this thread. What business do you have to question stuff that other people probably refuse to stop believing in?

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A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law.

Well, let's see here. Deists believe in a creator who doesn't interfere with the universe. Since no one's seen this god, much less, had evidence for him, it might as well be considered supernatural. Since it also concerns the universe, it is relevant to the cosmos. Admittedly, it's difficult to classify deism because there is that supernatural element, but it's a bit like atheism in that there is no dogma that says you have to do anything for this god--because he has nothing to do with the universe after it's been created. Some definitions of religion only require a belief in some supernatural element. This wouldn't be quite the same as the agnosticism that asserts it's impossible to know if god exists, and says absolutely nothing about whether or not a supernatural element actually exists; it's a bit more abstract than that.

But since you probably won't buy that, here's some I found from your beloved Wikipedia:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

God gave men reason.
God exists, created and governs the universe.
God wants human beings to behave morally.
Human beings have souls that survive death; that is, there is an afterlife.

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Although they are a minority, there are Deists who believe in an anthropomorphic God. It's not a dogma.

Just because not every deist follows the exact same moral doesn't mean it can't be a religion. Just look at Christianity. There are lots of people that call themselves Christians, yet none of them believe in the same set of things. They don't all agree on homosexuality, the existence or concept of limbo, the kinds of people that go to hell or its conditions, what things are considered sin, the concept of intolerance, slavery, the trinity, and certain other passages in the bible. Yet, the only thing they all agree on is that they believe in a single God somewhat based on the bible.

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Again, from wikipedia-

Are you trying to say a religion can't be built upon another religion? If so, please explain.

August 2, 2008, 5:45 AM

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What business do you have to question stuff that other people probably refuse to stop believing in?

If we don't question the motives of people's beliefs we'd still be in the dark ages. The Age of Enlightenment came from questioning traditional values and beliefs.

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Are you trying to say a religion can't be built upon another religion? If so, please explain.

No of coarse I'm not saying that, Protestantism came from Catholicism, Sufism from Islam, etc...

August 2, 2008, 6:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Katsky

If we don't question the motives of people's beliefs we'd still be in the dark ages. The Age of Enlightenment came from questioning traditional values and beliefs.

Again, this is all about the focus. I did ask that you phrase this in a way that explains why you choose or choose not to believe certain things, and most philosophical writings during that age were not necessarily written from the perspective of questioning other people's beliefs, but why the author themselves did or did not believe certain things. In other words, they explained their reasoning without the need to bug other people about what they believe. Even if they had, you can achieve the same thing without doing that.

August 2, 2008, 6:53 AM

Perhaps, but there's a difference between tolerating what someone believes and allowing them to believe it without question and thus allowing for the spread of ignorance, which does spread like the plague in todays society (the modern rise in neo-Nazi/Nationalist groups, especially in Europe, comes to mind).

August 2, 2008, 7:46 AM

I believe in the crystals theory.... Wait you mean religeon? Atheism