"God is as real as Maths"

February 18, 2007, 1:46 PM

In my absence here, I joined another forum. In their debate section, this exact thread was created. I found it very interesting and I'd love to hear what you all think.

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When people say to prove that God exists, but without using the Bible, Christian Views or the Church, it's impossible.

In the same manner, if you ask to prove that maths exists without addition, subtraction, multiplication or division, it cannot be done.

The point: by taking away the things that CAN prove that God exists, it is impossible. So, to symbolise this, maths has been used. Maths winds down to those four terms, so if you take away the its proof if existance, it's logical to conclude that if God can't be proven, then neither can Maths, right?

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I personally don't agree with this and I'll post why, once I have something to argue with. Arguing with yourself is no fun

February 18, 2007, 6:05 PM

Hmm ... for me, God is Maths.

Think about it: mathematics is merely using numbers to make calculations, sums, formulas etc., in order to create solutions to problems. But mathematics is entirely based on the laws of the Universe ... 1 + 1 = 2 and is the solid core base of all maths.

And when you consider my outlook, that God is present in everything and is, in fact, the Universe and we are all part of him, then it only shows that mathematical laws are also part of God and the way the Universe works.

February 18, 2007, 8:30 PM

IMO, mathematics is not based on the laws of the universe. We merely use math to describe the consistency in the universe that we observe. And 1+1=2 isn't the base for mathematics. Once you take enough advanced math courses (say Aabstract Algebra), you throw numbers and operators out the door and study the core of them and what they really mean. And you can definitely desribe math with addition, subtraction, etc, just take Abstract Algebra and you'll see what "real" math is (though it's generally a graduate level math class at most universities).

Anyway... here's my general thought on all of this...

I don't believe that you need the Bible to prove the existence of God. The Bible was a book composed by humans, so how could that possibly prove God's existence? However, I do believe that no matter how much we discover about are universe, there will always a question as to why or how something else happens. So let's take the question of existence: how are we here? Science says we evolved from simple parts to complex beings. Okay, how did the simple parts get here? Big bang. All right, what caused the big bang? One theory is string theory/parallel universes colliding. Okay, where did the strings/parallel universes come from? No one knows. Every answer about our universe will always raise another question, and the only way to answer every question is via a higher power that is beyond us. That's personally why I believe in God. The more I study science, the more I realize there is so much we can't explain and will never be able to. Not to mention, it's basically mathematically impossible for the spotaneous formation of the most basic elements (like proteins) required for our existence.

I could go on and on and on about this topic, as both math and God interest me very much.

But those are just my ramblings for now. What does everyone else think?

February 18, 2007, 8:46 PM

Well I always found math confusing and complicated as hell, much like God, so it seems like a fare comparison. The thing with math is that there are some problems, some exercises that use such procedures that make you think “no, no, no this guy just came up with this stuff, with did he moved those numbers? He just manipulated the equation in his favor”<o:p></o:p>
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Do you get what I mean or am just too bad at math? Anyway the problem with this comparison is well God is God, maths are maths. People pray to God all time and attribute him all good things that happen in their life, because we really can’t do anything good by ourselves.<o:p></o:p>
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And maths, even when they are so tricky they can always proof themselves, even if you used that weird procedure equations can always be proven by eliminating the incognita. That’s the problem with this comparison God cannot be proven the same way math can be, if you could do that, then there would be no such a thing as faith.<o:p></o:p>
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There is people that live their lives trying to prove that God does not exists, these kind of people is sad, why? Because you cannot prove that God does not exist, more than proving he does, why? Because of faith, people will always have it, they will not listen to people who say the opposite, nothing wrong with that, just that if God is not real then we all die and that’s it, but if he is real then we all die and life again, is not something you want to stop believing in.<o:p></o:p>
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So this comparison is not a good one, math and God are not comparable, God cannot be proven to exist and if we could do it, then it would not be God. <o:p></o:p>

March 6, 2007, 5:35 AM

Also, why is it that people go to each other and ask each other whether or not God exist when you could just go ask God yourself.

It's not impossible without the Bible or the Church. It is however extremely difficult to determine an existence of God if God does not interact with his own creation. Other external sources or references include reference to Jesus Christ (or Yahshua ha Mashiach) in the writings of Josephus Flavius work "Antiquities of the Jews" which was around 92 A.D. There is also mention of Christ in the works of Tacitus, a Roman historian. Also, locations mentioned in the Bible such as the Sea of Reeds crossing, Mt. Sinai. Another is Israel. Noah's Ark. Flood myths. The list could go on.

Perhaps the most important object when found or making an appearance would be the Ark of the Covenant. The appearance of just this object will dispel a lot of criticism.

I also think that one of my Physics professor best said it when he said that physics is used to help explain how some of the things God created works.

March 6, 2007, 3:14 PM

In some sense, you're right that math doesn't exist; it's abstract. It's applicable in the real world, but it's not required to be proven to exist. Since math deals with numbers like i and infinity, and they don't exist, you could say that math doesn't exist and it's just abstract. But at least it's useful in the real world for something like sciences or even economics. But I do not agree that there is any correlation between God or math because math, like science, can be considered a discovery, and it is a man made concept. It also relies quite a bit on intelligence, and I realize that God doesn't really liken to intelligence; he likens towards people having faith. The beauty of math relies on intelligence, not faith. And why God would create something that invokes as much skepticism as math does is beyond me. So I don't think he created it.

March 8, 2007, 9:29 PM

Nice post Juke, good points.

Just because something isn't tangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. i and infinity do exist, you just can't quantify them. They're as real as -4 and 0 are even though you can't see them. But all numbers were created by humans to describe the things that they observed (0 is an interesting number and it's existence was denied for hundreds of years. Pythagoras tried to hide the fact that 0 existed and people found out about it and hunted him down and killed him. The Catholic church tried to deny its existence a few hundred years ago because they thought the existence of 0 could disprove the fact that the Vatican was the religious center of the universe.) I think the comparison between math and God is interesting, but I don't think the existence of one is comparable to the existence of the other.

March 9, 2007, 8:14 AM

Have you ever studied probability? Look up the probability of Jesus Christ fulfilling prophecy. It's a very interesting study conducted by a Professor Stoner. Afterward, consider how math could be relevant to faith and intelligence and where that places God as Creator.

March 9, 2007, 2:59 PM

Math has nothing to do with faith. I can do well in math and not use a bit of faith at all. Math is logic.

March 9, 2007, 6:26 PM

Have you ever taken a math test that has a hard math question? If you've taken high levels of math, I'm sure that you would've placed down an answer hoping that it would be correct. Not all but for those complex question. That's having blind faith. If the test paper comes back with that particular question correct, you are over-joyed that you answered it correctly. If not, you are disappointed. So even when dealing with math, there is a kind of hope and faith.

Once you start applying math, things are different. Just as how probability is quite different when in the real world than it is on paper. what I am trying to say is that God-fearing people will have faith but God himself, as Creator, has a form of logic or else the whole entire universe would be in utter chaos. Not only that but God must be incredible smart also if he was able to not only create and maintain eco-systems. Even in simple eco-systems, there are many factors which still makes it hard for even humans to control.

Also, the Bible also has secrets in itself such as, I'm sure you heard, Bible codes. Also, in the Hebrew language, every letter has a numeric value. The first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is Alef which has a numeric value of 1. Bef is 2, Gimel is 3, Dalet is 4 and so forth. I think Greek letters also have numeric value.

There is even a Biblical numerology field.