Does God Hate Bisexuals and Homosexuals? - Page 7

July 11, 2008, 9:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by δ Kuja Ω

Hi Vegeta, I bolded the part that I'm a bit confused about. You see in my bible(I own it for the sake of owning one), it says spanish-english "The men of Sodom knocked on Lots door, and asked if he had any male residents staying with him, Lot replied "yes", and the men asked if the residents could spend some time with them, The men of sodom wanted to have sex with them."

Theres no mention of any angels, only that the City of Sodom and Gommorah(spelled wrong prolly) were to be destroyed because of homosexuality, Lots wife was also killed, because she looked back after God said not to.

So you claim you own alot of bibles, could you look into that? I only own one, and thats what it says, which is what leads to these arguments, since their all translated differently. Either though your point is valid.

- Kuja

Ah, sorry. I should have probably clarified that I was using the NIV version, which says in Genesis 19:1 "The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground." And in verses 4-5 it says "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

If you go by the King James version (probably the other most widely used version in English) verse 1 again makes mention of the angels, and verses 4 and 5 say the same thing, albeit in fancier speech: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them." Knowing them is of course referring to having sex, it was the nice way of putting it.

I find it kind of odd that your Bible makes no mention of the angels, are you sure you just missed it? It actually only refers to them as angels in verses 1 and 15, all other verses just refer to them as men. If you'd like to sift through other versions for yourself, this site is pretty handy, it has an immense amount of different translations on it, including several Spanish ones.

July 21, 2008, 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meta Knight

Ah, sorry. I should have probably clarified that I was using the NIV version, which says in Genesis 19:1 "The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground." And in verses 4-5 it says "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

If you go by the King James version (probably the other most widely used version in English) verse 1 again makes mention of the angels, and verses 4 and 5 say the same thing, albeit in fancier speech: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them." Knowing them is of course referring to having sex, it was the nice way of putting it.

I find it kind of odd that your Bible makes no mention of the angels, are you sure you just missed it? It actually only refers to them as angels in verses 1 and 15, all other verses just refer to them as men. If you'd like to sift through other versions for yourself, this site is pretty handy, it has an immense amount of different translations on it, including several Spanish ones.

Hey vegeta, or should I say Meta Knight =P,

I looked over two bibles, one spanish, and one a "kiddie" bible, and It seems I feel kind of dumb. Both speak of two men who were angels in disguise, I don't remember reading that part so I can only assume I missed the part >.>. However what i said above happened just without the visitors part .

Thanks for the link, it also said the same thing give or take.

- Kuja

July 21, 2008, 10:42 AM

δ Kuja Ω -- saying that you have to obey ALL the Old Testament also means you have to obey the laws about owning slaves, about killing your children and wife, about not eating pork, about keeping kosher, about wearing certain types of fabric, about using different plates for dishes using milk products and those with meat... there's tons and TONS of rules in the Mosaic Code that only the most orthodox Jews still follow.

All Christians are selectively chucking out most of the rules of the Old Testament; I don't know ANY Christian that follows them or thinks they're necessary... I'm sure you don't keep all the laws of the Mosaic code, do you?

My family doesn't, and we're a mix of Jews and Methodists.

In fact, that's what Jesus was saying -- those nitpicky rules didn't make you holy; what was important could be boiled down to loving your neighbor and treating people with respect, even people like prostitutes.

He did advocate upholding the Ten Commandments, however; they're the basics of the basics. But they don't have anything to say about homosexuality or bisexuality.

Regarding the story about Sodom and Gomorrah, it's condemning the people of the city for being promiscuous... and mainly for being wicked enough to demand the rape of guests. In the ancient world, the sanctity of guests was paramount. The Odyssey is one of many stories where abuse of hospitality, of guests, was a terrible crime. There were no hotels and precious little law enforcement, so travel and commerce relied entirely on the rule that you received visitors with hospitality. It's not surprising that the Bible has a story about the violation of the guest/host custom -- most of the cultures of the world have stories about that, and in all those stories, the ogre/bad hosts get what's coming to them for violating that cardinal rule of decency. The homosexuality aspect of the story is really rather irrelevant; the point was that guests were being threatened.

July 21, 2008, 10:47 AM

No problem, we all forget stuff

I did some more reading of Leviticus, and my lord, I found some insanely sexist shit (even moreso than the passage I quoted earlier about womens' time of the month). I know we're not talking about sexism in this topic, just prejudice against sexual orientation, but most homophobes gain their views on the matter from the Bible...and the Bible is just so full of appalling views that it just loses all credibility in my eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviticus 12

(1)The LORD said to Moses,
(2) "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
(3) On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
(4) Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.
(5) If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

This is just incredible, really. A women is unclean either way if she gives birth, but if she has a son she's only unclean for one week and has to wait a month to be purified. If she has a girl, she's unclean for two weeks and has to wait two months to be purified. Think about what that must have felt like to be a pregnant mother. You're already feeling like shit from crazy hormones, then you're told you're unclean. And if you have a girl, you're TWICE as unclean as you would be if you'd had a boy.

*sighs*

I really don't understand it. The Old Testament is a perfect record of the values and morals of a barbaric, 3000+ year old society of desert nomads. The New Testament is an incredible contradiction of the Old, it's a mish-mash of old and new beliefs, false hopes and prejudice hidden under the guise of "caring for one's soul." I don't see why anyone could glean ANY of their values from the Bible. Obviously it has some good values in it, but it's all general stuff taught in cultures world-wide: respect your elders, be faithful to your spouse, be honest, don't murder, etc. Basic instinctual things. Of course the sixth commandment (don't murder) sort of falls by the wayside most of the time when Jehova commands the Jews to go raid a town because they believe in Baal. Jews really love to make themselves seem like they've been victimized all through history, especially because of the holocaust, but the Old Testament shows them to be just as violent as any other tribe in the region. The book of Judges is a fabulous example of this. In the words of George Carlin, it's a struggle between different desert tribes shouting "my god has a bigger dick than your god."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judges 3

(1) These are the nations the LORD left to test all those Israelites who had not experienced any of the wars in Canaan
(2) (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience):
(3) the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo Hamath.
(4) They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.

It just confuses me why people would take their views on homosexuality from a violent tribe of people commanded by their "god" to fight others, to kill homosexuals, that women were unclean just from being pregnant, etc. I don't want to offend anyone by this, but in my opinion it would take a fool to believe this and extract any aspect of their values from this horrible book.

*EDITING because Auronlu ninja'd me*

You're right, Christians pick and choose. That's what makes believing in the Bible even more silly. The entire religion is a hodgepodge of values that do and don't apply to modern day life.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, you are correct in saying hospitality and sanctity of guests was paramount in those days. My problem with the story is that there's a 99.9% chance of it being a lie. Do you honestly think an entire city's male population is going to come out of their homes hellbent on raping two strangers? It's a ridiculous prospect and it portrays gays like they're all insatiable sexual predators. The only way that situation is possible at all is if the entire populous had severe mental issues, and that in itself is extremely improbable.

July 21, 2008, 10:48 AM

ok this wont end the debate BUT

god hates not the homos or the Bis

he just wants the world to repopulate and thus homosexuals cannot repopulate the bible tried to warn people off of being gay.,

July 21, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the real CloudStrife

he just wants the world to repopulate and thus homosexuals cannot repopulate the bible tried to warn people off of being gay.,

A valid argument, and goes along nicely with what God said to Noah in Genesis 9:7, "as for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." It's quite possible god himself (assuming that the Jewish/Christian god actually exists) doesn't hate bisexuals and homosexuals, and it was insecure people like Moses who spread the notion that they were detestable.

Looking at this from a current environmental standpoint, however, makes me think god would probably be in favor of MORE buttsecks and less multiplying. As a species we're multiplying too much and rapidly depleting resources we depend on. We're eventually just going to kill ourselves off if we keep it up, so a gradual decline in childbirth due to conscious decisions would be much preferable to humankind suffering through what happens when a population becomes too dense.

July 21, 2008, 11:07 AM

true but buttsex is a detestable way to think of it its anal sex lol

and straight people can have anal

i personally think its detestable ( no im not a homophobe im just a normal straight bloke but i think of it as putting my penis in sh*t so im gonna stick with the normal sex lol)

anyways back onto the topic

i agree noah is a homophobe lols ( i know that probz isnt what you mean)

but anyways i think god ( if he exists im not sure im not too religious myself) just wanted more people because as we die and "return to the plannet" in a way god learns all that we learned during our life and thus he is changeing as we change and he is develping as a god and a day is a second a year an hour ect.

July 21, 2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the real CloudStrife

true but buttsex is a detestable way to think of it its anal sex lol

and straight people can have anal

I actually don't understand the purpose of the term "anal sex." It's tossed around so commonly, either in reference to gay sex or in porn. But why? People don't typically say "zomg dude, i had teh best VAGINAL secks with my gf last night." It's like the term is in place just to keep the taboo branded onto that type of sex. And the term oral sex is just dumb, because there's no penetration going on.

Quote:

i personally think its detestable ( no im not a homophobe im just a normal straight bloke but i think of it as putting my penis in sh*t so im gonna stick with the normal sex lol)

Then make sure the person goes to the bathroom first and takes a shower

I'm not sure if this is entirely appropriate to say or not (forgive me if it isn't), but go watch an anal porn clip sometime. Unless of course your morals conflict with that sort of thing, in which case just take my word for it. Nine times out of ten, when the guy pulls out, his weewee isn't covered in chocolate.

Quote:

but anyways i think god ( if he exists im not sure im not too religious myself) just wanted more people because as we die and "return to the plannet" in a way god learns all that we learned during our life and thus he is changeing as we change and he is develping as a god and a day is a second a year an hour ect.

So your view more or less is that God is more of an ambiguous collection of all the life in the planet, past and present? It's a nice idea, a god (or force, if you will) of that nature definitely would not begrudge people simply because they happened to like the same sex. I think there's some sort of god out there, more of an actual entity than a force, but I don't think it's the Jewish god and I don't think it would hate people just because of their sexual orientation.

July 21, 2008, 11:39 AM

i wish i could say that as scientifically as that lol

anyways

i dont think that god hates them as such i just stick with what i said before