Do you believe in God? - Page 35

October 14, 2008, 11:26 AM

It would be a resounding yes from me, not just cos I'm a catholic, but because enough events and experiences have convinced me that there IS a God.

As for the very first post in this thread. Going by your concept, there would be an endless aim of creators without end. Just like trying to argue which came first, the chicken and the egg. Of course, by your logic, where did the earth come from? Atoms? Where did the atoms come from? XD

Just a thought, no offense meant. =)

October 14, 2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ade5kira

It would be a resounding yes from me, not just cos I'm a catholic, but because enough events and experiences have convinced me that there IS a God.

As for the very first post in this thread. Going by your concept, there would be an endless aim of creators without end. Just like trying to argue which came first, the chicken and the egg. Of course, by your logic, where did the earth come from? Atoms? Where did the atoms come from? XD

Just a thought, no offense meant. =)

But as a catholic, your belief is that the Earth was created in seven days. By a guy who is his son, he made a women give birth to him, who is his son, by making her pregnant without having sex. That's no more logical than the big bang theory. Also who created god, did he create himself, also why is there no mention of him prior to Judaism?
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm just pointing out that they are as logical as anyone elses.

October 14, 2008, 5:01 PM

This really is the ultimate question.

We don't know for sure, but we can believe whatever we want. The thing is, it had to all start somewhere. It makes more sense for a creative being with logic and sense to put these things (eg, something as complicated as an atom, the universes physics, matter in general etc) together than have them appear randomly, from nothingness, just one day deciding to appear.

But that also leaves the question; Where did this 'creator' come from?
Did it create itself? Why did it create?

The human brain can't figure this question out. We're clueless. We cling to the Big Bang but as many of you have pointed out that wasn't the start of matter, existence or anything at all.. The Big Bang only explains the spread of matter from one large mass to across the universe.. It isn't really a theory of how everything began. And now some people are saying that it could have happened many times. That the universe expands then contracts over billions upon billions of years. So really the universe, existence and everything could have been around for XILLIONS of years! We just don't know how old the universe really is, and we can't explain, or begin to imagine how something can appear out of nothing. In our logic something must either come out of something, or replace something.

Having a creator behind all of this is actually the logical route people always followed. It may not be true, but it is a way to tackle that impossible question. Once there was nothing, then there was something. Creation and the universe was born. It is hard to imagine it just appearing, so therefore some force must have created it, whereas to imagine how such a force can come into being stretched the mind as well, but most people in the past have settled themselves with "it just did" statements...

Not sure what I believe. None of us really know for sure. I think it's hard to imagine whatever it is, creator or whatever else there is to explain it, something randomly appearing out of blank space.... Or, the alternative, something ALWAYS being there... Which is somewhat even more mind bending.

So for ease I settle with there being some sort of force at works. The force of the cosmos, nature, whatever itself perhaps. If people want to collect this force and label it as Yahweh, Allah, God, Zeus, Jupiter, Osiris, Marduk, Prince Phillip, or any other name, then that is up to them. It is their own interpretation of this big question. And interesting stories and myths become attributed to these dieties as time progresses. Not denying that some may be true, but in most cases excagurated attempts at answering big questions, most importantly dealing with life and existence itself.

So yeah... I'm undecided and don't know what to believe yet really, and probably never will...

October 15, 2008, 3:57 PM

I have a question though. What evidence do you all have that there was a time where none of these things existed? In other words, why assume that matter was created when we have discovered a law that says no energy or matter can be created? Couldn't they simply have existed all along?

October 15, 2008, 4:39 PM

You do bring up a logical question, but it is a phisical impossibility for energy and matter to have always existed. If everything had always existed, the entropy of the universe would be infinitely high right now, and everything would have a temperature of 0 Kelvins because the universe cools over time, and if it had been around forever, it would have been cooling literally forever.
Another point: that law of conservation of energy and matter is not an absolute. In order for us to know an absolute law of the universe we would have to have a 100% understanding of everything. Since we do not know everything about the universe, there might be something in the universe that could 'break' any 'law' that we discover.

October 15, 2008, 4:53 PM

Well, now that we have that question out of the way, then I'll just make this comment. The big bang isn't something we cling onto as an explanation of the origin of the universe; that's just what most people want to believe. But to be more scientific about this, the big bang is a fact--not because it explains how the universe exists but because it was observed through other evidences. Namely, how the expansion and the way objects in space are moving away from each other is readily apparent.

I refuse to acknowledge that we were created by some sentient being. It is far too illogical to say that must be the case if there is no evidence for it. No one has evidence that this being exists. I am not saying I know what or how we must have been created, but to say that I do not know how we were created and believe that we must be created by a sentient being is far worse than simply claiming the former.

October 15, 2008, 5:35 PM

Well, I wasn't saying that there WAS a creative force at works, just that we don't really know, and shouldn't rule it out.

Also Big Bang theory may have have proof, and probably did occur, but that isn't a the start of the universe and matter, only the spread of these things, as you say.

Hmmm.. I have trouble imagining the possibility of matter existing forever... Even with religion, being told that God had existed forever, I could never get my head round that, so it is the same with science... But that may just be a limit to the human brain, not being able to imagine how such a thing is even possible.

When you think, you think that something must have formed from something, and can't possibly have been there forever. Everything has a begining, right? That is the human logic behind it, from what we have observed. Our human logic may be limited, and to view such a possibility will be an impossibility to most (well... all really)humans.

October 15, 2008, 8:56 PM

Um I do Kinda.... Its kinda hard to explain. but here I go I believe that there is some divine force out there. Now whether or not its a "being" I dont believe, Faith for me is kinda like the life force in ffVII and the force in Starwars. We write our own destinys but when it come to dying we return back to the life stream or force.

October 16, 2008, 6:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argor251

Hmmm.. I have trouble imagining the possibility of matter existing forever... Even with religion, being told that God had existed forever, I could never get my head round that, so it is the same with science... But that may just be a limit to the human brain, not being able to imagine how such a thing is even possible.

When you think, you think that something must have formed from something, and can't possibly have been there forever. Everything has a begining, right? That is the human logic behind it, from what we have observed. Our human logic may be limited, and to view such a possibility will be an impossibility to most (well... all really)humans.

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Well, if you have stuff coming from the other, and it keeps on going, then you run into the problem of infinite regress. Though to be honest, I've only really seen that term applied to mathematical definitions, where you have to find a definition that doesn't require something else to explain it--you have to start somewhere. So I guess supposing there was a creator might have been a way of preventing the infinite regress problem, but then I don't know where they get the characteristics of omnipotence and omniscience from--to say that it all started somewhere is fine from a philosophical perspective, but not if you're going to speculate about these properties that are not necessary to something that prevents infinite regress.

If we took the biblical perspective, for example, it's not necessary for God to have the image of man (in my honest opinion, that's just humanity's ego to say we're unique and more special than anything else that exists in the universe), or judge humanity, or focus on just the Earh when there are other planets out there, or even be a "character" with a personality, or even interact with us, or be omniscient or omnipotent to have created the universe, There's just far too much that's assumed that isn't necessary.

But how about a different perspective, and say instead (because infinite regress is only a problem for concepts that we try to grasp and can only be finite) that there is no end to the things that "created" us. Perhaps there will always be something that keeps creating something else and keeps going on forever. It may be hard for us to believe that it never started at all, and that everything exists as it is and never started, but what if the process of being created was infinite?

I'm not saying this is true though; it's an alternative to believing that there must have been one and only one creator that started everything in which no one or nothing created it.