Legacy of Kain: Defiance Storyline

March 21, 2008, 7:15 PM

Ok, while replaying LOK: Defiance, again, I've stumbled, yet again, with a
a slight incongruity in the events, but I could be wrong.

So, it all happens when you are at the Vampire Citadel, where Kain, having survived a near fatal injury dealt by Raziel, came back from the underworld and headed towards the Citadel. As soon as he reaches it, he stumbles across the time of the fatalistic moment in which he chose the self preservation and damned the Pillars to an eternity of decay.

For those who have played the first game of the series, Blood Omen, this is the same time line in which a younger vampire Kain slew the members of the Circle, one of them being the Time Streamer, Moebius. Now, this is taking place exactly at the same time when an older Kain, travels through time and finds himself in the Vampire Citadel in which, surprisingly, Moebius still lives. But how? Wasn't he murdered before? Unless he is Moebius from the past, yet there's also a problem with that.

Kain murders Moebius, again, in the Vampire Citadel with the Reaver, while a younger Kain slew another Moebius a few hours ago and claimed the relic to restore the Pillar of Time. Much more, Raziel too absorbed Moebius soul in the underworld.

Now, if you play Soul Reaver 2, during one of Raziel's quest, you stumble across the spirit of Moebius, but how, if in LOK: Defience, Raziel had already absorbed the soul.

So, which Moebius was the real one? Or do we have two different Time Streamers? Perhaps the powers of the Time Streamer are greater than we could ever imagine.

How can Moebius die at the same time in the same time line?

Can someone explain this to me?

March 21, 2008, 7:54 PM

Being the Time Streamer, it's self-explanatory that he's able to cross time-lines at will, as shown during his manipulation of events inspiring the revolt against Vampires in BO1 [manipulating William into war, subtly encouraging Kain to slay him - resulting in the genocide].

It's possible that Moebius just wanted to see how things panned out [as he was, indeed, attempting to manipulate just about everything], resulting in him crossing time to witness Kain and Raziel's journey. Though on the other hand, it could well just be a fuck-up.

As for Raziel absorbing Moebius, this wasn't actually supposed to happen; it was one of the events featured on the edge of Kain's coin, which time itself could not foresee - resulting in Moebius' lack of knowledge, and his surprise, at Kain's return.

Quote:

Now, if you play Soul Reaver 2, during one of Raziel's quest, you stumble across the spirit of Moebius, but how, if in LOK: Defience, Raziel had already absorbed the soul.

If you're referring the time when there were demon hunters around [and the actual demons?], then it wasn't Moebius' spirit. Raziel suspected this, and threatened to consume it if he were real and not just some manipulative device created by the Moebius he knew [we're all aware of Moebius' ability to replicate himself, so this is of no surprise]. Moebius' copy vanished before Raziel could clarify the copy's true essence.

I've probably missed something out... so much explaining. D=

March 21, 2008, 8:04 PM

This was actually explained in an interview with Amy from the company that made the games.

Moebius is killed first my the younger Kain and then resurrected by the Elder God. Then killed again before he could have visited Raziel at Vordors mansion.

The main reason for this and a few other oddities is that Defiance underwent a lot of switching around near the end of it's development.

I can't remember the exact quote but I will go and try and find it.

EDIT:

Found the quotes, they are done in a Question and Answer method.

Quote:

Does the young Kain still kill Moebius?
Yes. When Moebius is summoned to the Citadel at the end of the game, the Elder God has resurrected him from dying at the hands of Blood Omen-era Kain.

This is the main one.

Quote:

Late in the game, Raziel meets Mortanius speaking his "come to me, my undead son" line, which takes place after Moebius is killed by the young Kain in Blood Omen. How can Raziel then run into Moebius in Vorador's Mansion?
This is a bit of a mistake due to some shuffling of the story near the end. Moebius was originally not going to make an appearance in the Mansion, but it was decided that it would make the story better to have Raziel face him again before the final battle.

March 21, 2008, 8:33 PM

Oh so that explains, I guess I missed something while playing LOK: Defiance. But if Moebius was resurrected, then the Pillar should have never been restored (as shown when Kain presents the Relic to restore the Pillar of time) unless Moebius was killed again before the younger Kain reached the Pillars.

Raziel was supposed to enter the sword as soon as he slew his Sarafan Alter-Ego with the Reaver, but his fate was altered when Kain torn the sword out of Raziel's chest at the Chapter Chamber, thus creating another paradox and forcing time to reshuffle itself, yet again. Still, Raziel's destiny could not be avoided, it was merely rewritten as he now willingly entered the blade carrying with him the purified wraith reaver.

This also alters the fact that the spirit within the reaver is no longer a voracious and ravenous soul forcedly imprisoned, but a more enlightened Raziel who willingly sacrificed his existence to give Nosgoth a new hope.

That also explains why Moebius couldn't forsee Kain's return, because Kain was also supposed to die in William's Chapel, but Raziel refused to kill him. Moebius couldn't see beyond Kain's plot, the coin he had tossed when he chose to save himself instead of sacrifice, because the future was never actually written, not after he saved Raziel from entering the blade.

March 21, 2008, 8:36 PM

Got to love Raziel's free will which really doesn't exist as he was always fated to become the Soul Reaver and Amy has made it clear he shall never escape from it.

Damn I love the LoK storyline.

Oh and I am pretty sure Moebius nature as the Time guardian moved on when he first died but being resurrected still had his powers or maybe they where replaced by the Elder God with new magic. Seeing as time traveling is done via the streamer. He never demonstrates any actual time powers after he first dies just generic magic.

March 21, 2008, 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tethar

Got to love Raziel's free will which really doesn't exist as he was always fated to become the Soul Reaver and Amy has made it clear he shall never escape from it.

Damn I love the LoK storyline.

Oh and I am pretty sure Moebius nature as the Time guardian moved on when he first died but being resurrected still had his powers or maybe they where replaced by the Elder God with new magic. Seeing as time traveling is done via the streamer. He never demonstrates any actual time powers after he first dies just generic magic.

Well the only way he could have probably traveled through time was via the Time Streaming Devices, like the Chronoplast Chamber hidden near the region ruled by the Dumahim Vampires. Maybe he did lost his ability of foresight after being slain by the younger Kain.

March 30, 2008, 3:05 PM

Ok, while replaying Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver two, it somehow reminded me of the important role that Moebius' staff played in the series. Seeing that it affected vampires, and even the soul once held captive in the "Reaver Blade", I wonder why Moebius didn't use his staff against Kain during their final encounter in Blood Omen. The only thing that Moebius did was summon warriors from past, present and future times.

If I am correct, at this point Kain still had the "Heart of Darkness" inside of him, which was the only thing that the staff affected. Once the heart was torn from his chest, Kain was immune to the staff's paralyzing effect. So why, when young Kain stroke down Moebius, the Time Streamer did not use his staff? Unless, the Moebius that Kain killed was not the real Moebius, as suggested in another discussion.

PS: Please merge this thread with my other LOK: Defience thread. I plan on using it more as I replay the games.

PS2: Does anyone knows a place for me to download Blood Omen? My PS copy died....damn it

March 30, 2008, 3:19 PM

Threads merged.