 |
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 6:22 PM
|
#21
|
|
- A E T E R N U S -
Class: RPG Director
Level: 37
HP: 340/340
MP: 220/220
EXP: 32
Join Date: October 2006
Location: The world is my playground.
Posts: 4,856
Threads: 124
Gil: 119,634
Member No.: 703
My Mood:
Rep Power: 6
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riku
The other character I've voted for is Sorceress Ultimecia. She had no motivation for her deeds - she just did them. Between possessing Matron and causing international war to releasing the most powerful sorceress of the time, all in hopes of accomplishing a world where only she can exist ... there's not much else but pure evil for the sheer sake of it, right there.
|
Well Ultimacia hated the SeeDs, all of them, mainly because she knew they were destined to destroy her. Due to that, Ultimacia slaughtered as many SeeDs as she could, as we can see when entering her castle, bodies scattered all over the place, they were White SeeDs.
Her motivation was to rule through all times, to have past, present and future merged together to spread chaos and ruin through ages.
__________________
~T H E L E G E N D~
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 6:27 PM
|
#22
|
|
White Mage
Class: Full Member
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: July 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 251
Threads: 46
Gil: 0
Member No.: 240
Rep Power: 3
|
It's her fault that:
A) The SeeDs wanted to destroy her.
B) That the SeeDs were evena ble to destroy her.
By trying to prevent the thing she feared, she made it come to pass.
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 6:30 PM
|
#23
|
|
ShinRa Guard
Class: Junior Member
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: March 2008
Age: 16
Posts: 27
Threads: 1
Gil: 0
Member No.: 8756
My Mood:
Rep Power: 0
|
Ah, so many of you would say 'Sephiroth' -of course!...but who created him? Who maimed vincent and killed Lucrecia? Who made cloud and revived Jenova?
H-O-J-O
__________________
Put safety pins in pairs of socks when you wash them so you don't get them mixed up.
Use hydrogen peroxide to remove blood from clothing or furniture. Rub gently.
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 8:07 PM
|
#24
|
|
Are you okay? Bustah WOLF!
Class: Full Member
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: November 2007
Location: Somewhere on the edge of Edge
Age: 14
Posts: 180
Gil: 0
Member No.: 7454
My Mood:
Rep Power: 1
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkolas
Sorry Oathkeeper. Advent Children > logic.
Sephiroth: What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the
cosmos with this Planet as my vessel -- just as my mother did before long ago.
|
I'm going to have to agree with you on the grounds that Advent Children (and the rest of the FFVII Compilation) was complete bullshit. I can't deny that it's canon, but...god, I really wish it wasn't. I'd just like to make it known that, when I defend Sephiroth, I'm defending the Sephiroth that appeared in Final Fantasy VII. Remember him? The wonderfully-crafted villain with genuine depth and a complex personality (for the time)? Yeah. I loved him. He was awesome. Too bad Nomura took over and turned him into 2-Dimensional Prettyboy #591. I suppose it is rather unfair/closed-minded of me to not take the FFVII Compilation into consideration, but goddamnit, that sin against all that is Final Fantasy should never have existed. It tarnished the good name of a wonderful RPG. *fumes*
However, I still stand by my statement that Sephiroth is not a momma's boy. The fact remains, Sephiroth decapitated JENOVA and repeatedly tore off her body parts, sending them to do battle against a team of powerful warriors. Even if he still thinks JENOVA is his mother, he doesn't exactly treat her very well. He certainly doesn't suck up to her or depend on her in any way. So yes, as of Advent Children, perhaps he does think JENOVA is his mother, but I still can't see why anyone would call him a "momma's boy."
Of course, you can't deny that that statement is quite ridiculous. I honestly don't know what possessed Nomura to include that in the movie's script. It was obvious in FFVII that Sephiroth had come to realize that JENOVA wasn't his mother, considering he no longer thinks of himself as a Cetra. In fact, if memory serves, he blatantly refers to himself as being superior to the Cetra. Besides, logically, he should've gained the knowledge of what JENOVA really was during his time spent in the Lifestream. Of course I'm not saying that the line shouldn't be taken into consideration, but you have to admit that it doesn't make that much sense, given what we say in FFVII itself.
Quote:
|
He was the first subject in an experiment that wrecked his mind.
|
You mean the experiment that Celes went through and came out of perfectly fine? Even without taking into consideration the obvious flaw there, it's still terrible storytelling in that Kefka fails to develop as a character beyond that 2-Dimensional stereotype. I still assert that he's no better than the average Captain Planet villain in terms of character depth.
Quote:
|
Also, Sephiroth has no reason to be a villain. His only reason to be a villain is a lie that he knows is a lie. So he continues on being a villain because he's just that stupid and 2-dimensional.
|
Yes, nevermind the fact that he found out that everything he'd been told over the course of his life was a blatant lie and that he was a monster created for the explicit purpose of slaughtering people in the name of ShinRa. Oh, and the stress/pressure he obviously went through as the best of SOLDIER means nothing, either.
For the record...
FFVII Sephiroth>Kefka
FFVII Compilation Sephiroth<Kefka
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 8:43 PM
|
#25
|
|
Failure Is Not An Option.
Class: Moderator
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: December 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 18
Posts: 736
Threads: 30
Gil: 0
Member No.: 7759
Rep Power: 2
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by clean_queen
Ah, so many of you would say 'Sephiroth' -of course!...but who created him? Who maimed vincent and killed Lucrecia? Who made cloud and revived Jenova?
H-O-J-O
|
I'm gonna have to agree with this. Hojo was one scum-sucking douchebag, whose villainy is rather underrated.
|
|
|
March 30, 2008, 9:00 PM
|
#26
|
|
Eyes on the Prize
Class: Senior Member
Level: 5
HP: 100/100
MP: 100/100
EXP: 43
Join Date: September 2007
Location: Whatever.
Age: 18
Posts: 1,270
Threads: 24
Gil: 579
Member No.: 7009
My Mood:
Rep Power: 2
|
I voted Kefka for basically the same reasons that Kendra outlined in the first page. He basically went on a rampage, destroying whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to. Although he's a funny character, he's still mad and his evilness knows no bounds. 
__________________
My bet's on the one with the damaged frown.
|
|
|
March 31, 2008, 2:25 AM
|
#27
|
|
Smoke and Arrogance
Class: Full Member
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: August 2007
Location: Tokyo
Age: 20
Posts: 431
Threads: 16
Gil: 0
Member No.: 6775
My Mood:
Rep Power: 1
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Oathkeeper
Gee, Erythritol, you sure are cool and edgy because you can hate something popular. */blatant sarcasm*
Would you please explain to me why you think that Sephiroth is a whiny momma's boy? First of all, he doesn't actually think JENOVA is his mother beyond the event in Nibelheim. After that, he comes to realize that JENOVA is not related to him in any way and recognizes her as merely a means to an end. Besides, last time I checked, momma's boys didn't decapitate their mothers and rip off her body parts to do battle with his enemies. Not once over the entire course of the game does Sephiroth show any dependency on JENOVA whatsoever. In fact, it's JENOVA who's being used by Sephiroth to achieve his own ultimate goal. So, let's see here...Sephiroth cuts off JENOVA's body parts, sends her to her death, and uses her to try and take over the world. Yeah. He's totally a momma's boy.
As for the whiny part...I don't understand that, either. Sephiroth is one tough cookie. Let's see you get stabbed through the back with the Buster Sword (thus severing your spinal chord) and still manage to lift someone off the ground with one arm while limping out of what is essentially a nuclear reactor except even more dangerous. If you think Sephiroth is whiny, I really don't see how you could like Kefka. Need I remind you that, every time Kefka encounters the party before the final battle, he either runs away or falls over/gets defeated? Yeah. Kefka sure is tough. I don't honestly know why people accuse Sephiroth of being a sissy when he takes huge amounts of physical punishment in the Nibelheim Reactor alone.
Furthermore, yes, Sephiroth went insane. He'd just discovered that everything he'd ever been told about himself was a blatant lie, and that he was created for the sole purpose of killing people for ShinRa. That's it. That was the only reason he existed. If you found you that you existed for the sole purpose of slaughtering other people, I don't think you would be all smiles and sunshine, either. Sephiroth deemed himself superior as a coping mechanism. He didn't want to believe that he was a monster, so he subconsciously convinced himself that he wasn't. Besides, he doesn't actually whine at all. He goes outside and promptly kills everyone in Nibelheim without a moment's hesitation and doesn't complain a single time. Explain to me how that's "whiny."
Besides, Sephiroth was a SOLDIER. I don't think people realize the stress that comes with being even a regular soldier in our world. Marines are often put under extreme stress and commonly suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder once they come home. Since Sephiroth was the best of SOLDIER (and thus, put under the most pressure), it's only safe to assume that he had a lot on his plate. When he found out that he was created for the explicit purpose of manslaughter (and nothing more), he finally snapped.
Again, I turn your attention to Kefka, who went insane without any reason. How is Kefka less whiny than Sephiroth? He was psychotic without a reason to be psychotic in the first place, at least not that we know of. He whines, complains, and throws hissy fits whenever he gets sand in his boots. Now, as entertaining as that scene was, it doesn't exactly show any integrity on his part.
Honestly, I don't mind if someone doesn't like Sephiroth. Really, I don't. As stated many times, he's not even my favorite villain in the series. But at least get your facts straight before you bash his character.
|
Oh thank god! Someone thinks I'm cool!
I don't dislike Sephiroth because iM LyKe So tReNdY. I think he's a shit villain. When I was playing FVII, I was just bored. Aside from the fact he's cool looking, I didn't care about him at all. I didn't even understand his motivation. Okay, you went through some files and figured out you were an experiment. And that's a problem why...? It doesn't alter your appearance, and it gives you superhuman powers. Boohoo? Why is that such an issue? (And why didn't they shred or, I don't know, FIND A BETTER HIDING PLACE for such super sensitive files?) So because he finds out he's an experiment, he goes crazy and starts killing everyone (including his friends? hello?) and burning shit down? Um..did I miss something here? How is that a reasonable reaction? You say he went crazy because he thought he was created just for manslaughter. So of course the reasonable thing to do then is.......kill people...because if the thought of existing solely to kill people upsets you...you definitely go right out to kill others, starting with your friends? Makes perfect sense.......right? No.
Oh, and he has the personality of a wet mop. He just stalks around with his serious face all the time, talking about crazy ass shit that makes him sound like he's part of some cult. "I'm going to become one with the planet!!" Okay...you do that, pal.
I love when a villain isn't pointlessly evil and has some sort of explanation, honestly. But seriously, if you're going to explain his motivation...have it make sense please. Sephiroth's motivation just didn't make any sense to me. He also didn't seem that evil. It seemed more like he was taking revenge...which, I guess, makes sense. ...Although he was taking some pretty drastic meteor-summoning revenge.
Okay, normally I really hate when a villain is just like "I'm evil! Muwahaha! Why? Just because I'm evil!" but Kefka is a total exception. He was so damn funny in a horribly sinister way! He killed people and laughed while doing it. He had no problem poisoning a town for no reason, but threw a fit if sand got in his boots. That just makes him interesting. He also had such style! Any man who dresses like that with complete and utter confidence is awesome, in my opinion. That just makes you bad ass. Oh, he also had a cult in the game, AND he achieved god-hood. He also succeeded in destroying the world. Kefka was just an interesting character, and I was entertained any time he was on screen. It wasn't like *sigh* okay....man with silver hair ran thata way...oops, no, now he ran the other way...*sigh*....just missed him again but there's his giant sword... I just found Sephiroth boring. Kefka was colorful.
__________________
"The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution."
--Paul Cézanne
|
|
|
March 31, 2008, 10:45 AM
|
#28
|
|
Are you okay? Bustah WOLF!
Class: Full Member
Level: 0
HP: 0/0
MP: 0/0
EXP: 0
Join Date: November 2007
Location: Somewhere on the edge of Edge
Age: 14
Posts: 180
Gil: 0
Member No.: 7454
My Mood:
Rep Power: 1
|
Quote:
Oh thank god! Someone thinks I'm cool!
I don't dislike Sephiroth because iM LyKe So tReNdY. I think he's a shit villain. When I was playing FVII, I was just bored. Aside from the fact he's cool looking, I didn't care about him at all. I didn't even understand his motivation. Okay, you went through some files and figured out you were an experiment. And that's a problem why...? It doesn't alter your appearance, and it gives you superhuman powers. Boohoo? Why is that such an issue? (And why didn't they shred or, I don't know, FIND A BETTER HIDING PLACE for such super sensitive files?) So because he finds out he's an experiment, he goes crazy and starts killing everyone (including his friends? hello?) and burning shit down? Um..did I miss something here? How is that a reasonable reaction? You say he went crazy because he thought he was created just for manslaughter. So of course the reasonable thing to do then is.......kill people...because if the thought of existing solely to kill people upsets you...you definitely go right out to kill others, starting with your friends? Makes perfect sense.......right? No.
|
Well, again, I can't fault someone for just not liking Sephiroth, but your reasons still don't make much sense. You seem to be under the impression that superpowers make everything better. If that were the case, then we'd probably never have any supervillains, because they'd all be too busy being happy about their neat powers to destroy the world. Sephiroth was a genuine freak of nature. That he had superhuman abilities didn't make up for the fact that basically everything he'd been told about himself was a lie. And...a better hiding place? Excuse me, but didn't ShinRa lock those files in a laboratory hidden deep underground behind a secret door? And yes, he goes crazy and starts burning shit down. I told you, it was essentially a coping mechanism. Sephiroth didn't want to believe that he was created to serve ShinRa, so he convinced himself he was superior to ShinRa. In fact, he had to convince himself that he was superior to the entire human race so he didn't have to deal with the harsh reality of his identity.
I agree that Sephiroth isn't the most realistic villain ever, but you have to remember that this game was made in 1997. At the time, RPG's were still a developing media. Before villains like Sephiroth and Kefka, the typical RPG villain acted more along the lines of ExDeath. They were shadowy figures without identities who operated from the shadows. Just like Kefka was one of the first RPG villains to have an actual personality, Sephiroth was basically the first RPG villain who actually had a backstory of some sort. Everyone has to start somewhere. For the time of his creation, Sephiroth was an incredibly complex villain and character.
Quote:
|
Oh, and he has the personality of a wet mop. He just stalks around with his serious face all the time, talking about crazy ass shit that makes him sound like he's part of some cult. "I'm going to become one with the planet!!" Okay...you do that, pal.
|
No personality? 2-Dimensional character? Why, I do believe that sounds exactly like Kefka, good sir! He went around talking about killing, and...that's basically it. That's all there is to him. Oh yeah, and he dresses like a psychotic clown. Because we've never seen psychotic clowns before. *coughStephenKingcough*
In any case, if that's all you saw in Sephiroth's character, you should probably pay more attention to the actual dialogue. Yes, Sephiroth talked about becoming one with the Planet...because that was his goal as a villain. That's because, within the FFVII Universe, that's a perfectly reasonable goal for a villain to have. Kind of like how ExDeath wanted to become one with the Void, Ultimecia wanted to compress time, and Kefka wanted to...err...destroy the world *coughblandcough*.
Besides, Sephiroth actually had...you know...style. Unlike a lot of villains, he really served to intimidate a lot of players during their first playthroughs. He had a sort of presence that wasn't really replicated by any other RPG villains at the time. Still, it's pointless to try to convince you of that, because you just didn't like the personality that he did have. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, but you really should know that there was definitely more to his character than "creepy cult member."
Quote:
|
I love when a villain isn't pointlessly evil and has some sort of explanation, honestly. But seriously, if you're going to explain his motivation...have it make sense please. Sephiroth's motivation just didn't make any sense to me. He also didn't seem that evil. It seemed more like he was taking revenge...which, I guess, makes sense. ...Although he was taking some pretty drastic meteor-summoning revenge.
|
Yes, Sephiroth isn't realistic by today's standards because RPG's are evolving. Kefka is pretty outdated, too, if you haven't noticed. However, again, both of them were created back when RPG's were a lot less complex than they are today...at least storyline-wise. You can't expect them to have completely realistic, dynamic reactions that perfectly replicate human emotion. Again, everyone has to start somewhere. Sephiroth and Kefka are still popular because they each have a redeeming quality. Sephiroth has his style, and Kefka had his colorful personality.
Quote:
|
Okay, normally I really hate when a villain is just like "I'm evil! Muwahaha! Why? Just because I'm evil!" but Kefka is a total exception. He was so damn funny in a horribly sinister way! He killed people and laughed while doing it. He had no problem poisoning a town for no reason, but threw a fit if sand got in his boots. That just makes him interesting. He also had such style! Any man who dresses like that with complete and utter confidence is awesome, in my opinion. That just makes you bad ass. Oh, he also had a cult in the game, AND he achieved god-hood. He also succeeded in destroying the world. Kefka was just an interesting character, and I was entertained any time he was on screen. It wasn't like *sigh* okay....man with silver hair ran thata way...oops, no, now he ran the other way...*sigh*....just missed him again but there's his giant sword... I just found Sephiroth boring. Kefka was colorful.
|
Yes. As I've said many times, I love Kefka. I know it sounds impossible for someone to like both Sephiroth and Kefka in the same way that it sounds impossible for someone to like the Red Sox and the Yankees, but I do. While Sephiroth takes second place behind Kuja in my book, Kefka is still a wonderful villain with interesting one-liners that certainly compensated for his lack of depth. However, I realize that, when it comes down to it, Kefka is nothing more than the archetypical 2-Dimensional psychotic clown. That doesn't prevent me from liking/hating his character as a villain (depending on how you look at it), but it does prevents me from being blinded by nostalgia into thinking that he's the greatest villain to ever grace the Final Fantasy series.
Of course, it's also a mistake to claim that a villain's accomplishments make them better villains. By that logic, Dragonball Z villains would be the greatest antagonists ever because they've destroyed numerous galaxies and planets within the span of just one episode. However, I am of the opinion that the Dragonball Z villains are among the worst (except for Frieza, who will always be a classic anime villain as far as I'm concerned). The fact that Kefka destroyed the world really doesn't make him a more interesting character. Besides, there have been villains within the Final Fantasy series itself who have done more damage to space on a universal scale. Chaos disrupted the flow of time itself, ExDeath nearly absorbed the entire universe with the Void, Ultimecia had already absorbed a significant portion of time/space by the time Squall beat her, and Kuja destroyed a planet himself (hell, it's theorized that he destroyed the crystal that gave life to existence itself). Kefka really isn't even anything special in terms of what he accomplished.
Yes, I love Kefka, and no, I can't fault anyone for disliking Sephiroth. I really hope to make that clear to avoid unneccessary confrontation. However, you pretty much just over-simplified Sephiroth's personality to suit your argument. As far as the original FFVII goes, there was a lot more too him than "The psychopath with a sword." Granted, when it comes to the rest of the FFVII Compilation, Nomura basically stripped Sephiroth of any depth he might've had in the first place, but...that's a whole other argument. I'm speaking for the original Sephiroth, not the cheap knockoff we see in Advent Children and beyond.
|
|
|
| | |