Proof - Page 3

December 6, 2006, 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tidus93

I have a bone to pick with you... How do you know that your life isn't already set and written as if in stone, How do you know that an omnipotent GOD is not able to repredict your new future on a moments notice, after you have changed your future, I forgot the myth but didn't the guy in mythology try to change his future by not killing his father and marrying his mother. He failed, he found some guy on the street who insulted him and he killed this guy it was his father. Then he found this girl at the palace and married her, it was his mother. He ran away to avoid this fate yet it happened anyways...

That's funny because that's the prime example I always use when explaining God's omniscience and free will. It's a Greek tragedy called Oedipus Rex, and the concept of it is that fate cannot be changed. Simply put; free will does not exist, or it is redundant and meaningless. If free will exists, then God cannot be omniscient because he will know every choice I make, and since he has created me, he has created me to make that choice. If I change my mind, then he has also created me to change my mind, and he also knows that I will change my mind. If he does not know that, and cannot do that, then he is not omniscient. Put another way, whatever choice I make is meaningless because there is someone who exists that knows what I will choose. Which defeats the point of choosing something because no matter what I choose, the same thing always happens. I have no freedom in the choices I make if they lead to the same things.

December 6, 2006, 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That's funny because that's the prime example I always use when explaining God's omniscience and free will. It's a Greek tragedy called Oedipus Rex, and the concept of it is that fate cannot be changed. Simply put; free will does not exist, or it is redundant and meaningless. If free will exists, then God cannot be omniscient because he will know every choice I make, and since he has created me, he has created me to make that choice. If I change my mind, then he has also created me to change my mind, and he also knows that I will change my mind. If he does not know that, and cannot do that, then he is not omniscient. Put another way, whatever choice I make is meaningless because there is someone who exists that knows what I will choose. Which defeats the point of choosing something because no matter what I choose, the same thing always happens. I have no freedom in the choices I make if they lead to the same things.

Don't you just love pointing out contradictions and flaws?

December 6, 2006, 10:40 PM

I'd love it more if I could find some new contradictions or stuff to point out. I keep getting the same ones over and over again.

December 6, 2006, 10:45 PM

Don't worry. No doubt something will creep it's way into a discussion or two later on.

December 6, 2006, 11:04 PM

Yea you're probably right just as long as this thread stays up we can all find something to fight about... and whether we want to or not fate will one day conspire and we shall all debate a common topic!

December 7, 2006, 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsoul

That was an entirely biased and unfair comment. I have a friend that comes from there and he is none of the things you claim him to be. Try to learn things, my dear, before stating them as fact. You have no proof to back up your claim that people in New Orleans deserved a mass murder--don't you realize there were plenty of innocent people there? Or does god just ignore that and go killling at will? That would conicide with everything in the bible come to think of it--the flood after all was another such example of god's inability to deal with things rationally.

Well, my dear, I wasn't under the impression that when I state my opinion I am considering it to be a cold hard fact. Of course I realize there were innocent people there. You, my dear, have no idea what God knows, so you cannot judge and say his actions are unrational. For if you truly knew what was rational, you would be god yourself. So obviously, this whole subject of argument is futile.

December 7, 2006, 4:35 PM

"Rational" and "irrational" are terms that are probably better used on things that are more objective rather than subjective, and religion and morality are highly subjective. It's really hard to judge whether something is "rational" and "irrational", especially when it comes to moral purpose. We do not need to be God to know what rationality is, and what it isn't. We use it all the time in math and science, and it works.

As for judgment on a more subjective matter, there is no such thing as a "wrong" judgment; we are all entitled to have one. The problem is that this is one of those things where there is no right or wrong answer, there may be many correct answers, or no answer at all. So you can't really say that God's answer is the only correct one at all; certainly, things have been shown to be resolved better without resorting to God.

December 8, 2006, 3:30 AM

I have been a Christian all of my life, I prayed to God to help me and alot of others out of trouble. And in the end He always came through, As a Christian, I also believe there is a Kingdom in Heaven that God wants to share with us.

Edit: To Mister/Lady Garnet: You are quite correct, God is omiscient, or all knowing.

And to all who believe, all is in His hands, but he makes all things happen for a reason. Like, for example, the loss of a loved one will only make us stronger. And so on of course.

December 8, 2006, 2:34 PM

Hi Galoko, it's nice to see someone here with a more Christian viewpoint...!

And Sepiroth is very right, rational and irrational really cant be appropriately used within this argument.

December 11, 2006, 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galoko Izamaku

Edit: To Mister/Lady Garnet: You are quite correct, God is omiscient, or all knowing.

No, she is not. No, you are not. No, I am not. It's all "subjective", as Sephiroth said, so no one can fairly arrive at a definite answer such as that. If you would read, Sephiroth's first post at the top of this page gives a very strong argument against your point, by the way.