Free Will - Page 3

April 1, 2007, 1:07 AM

Well, either it means he could choose not to know the future, and you're suggesting he's still omniscient, because he could change his mind at anytime and look into the future and know exactly what is going to happen, or he doesn't know the future, we're not fated, and he's not omniscient. Which still means we're fated. Omniscience is simply an implication of fate. It is not a requirement of fate though; this has to do with the A implies B argument; omniscience implies fate, but this does not mean that omniscience must exist if fate exists. Or conversely, fate can exist even if there isn't a person who knows what will happen in the future. Fate simply means that whatever choice we make does not change the outcome. Thus free will is still redundant.

April 1, 2007, 1:16 AM

^^^ my head just exploted ^^^

Don't try to use logic with God, it never ends well, you can still believe him to be all powerful and believe in free will, let's put it this way, if he can do what ever the hell he wants then he can give us free will. period

April 1, 2007, 2:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilverD

You do realize that this is the "Religious Debate subforum" right? is ok if you don't believe in God, but you could at least show some respect for the people that do. It helps preventing unnecesary discussions

I don't think you grasp the philosophical and historical dynamic between theism and atheism. IE, we can't both be right. Mutual exclusivity and all that. More to the point if Christians had not left a trail of death and destruction like a horde of invading demons from the netherworld throughout history - and if their spokesman today made a single ounce of sense - then I might be persuaded to treat them as something other than a cancer on the human race. How many empires does Christianity have to rot into ashes and ruin before you'll allow me to dislike it?

April 1, 2007, 3:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilverD

^^^ my head just exploted ^^^

Don't try to use logic with God, it never ends well, you can still believe him to be all powerful and believe in free will, let's put it this way, if he can do what ever the hell he wants then he can give us free will. period

I hope you weren't using that argument on me because you didn't understand what I was posting. If it is contradictory for God to be omniscient and free will to not be redundant or exist, then maybe he doesn't. It's a possible theory that fits with what we know. If you're going to try and show that he can be omniscient and free will is meaningful, then you're going to have to explain that to me besides using the crutch that you believe in it. Afterall, this is a debate forum. You can't simply say it is because he can do whatever he wants. You need to support your argument.

April 1, 2007, 4:18 AM

Some theologians have actually speculated that God limits his omniscience, as someone in this thread actually posted. It looks like they in fact lifted it right from wikipedia, with the bold faced words and all.

Theologians have struggled with this paradox for centuries now, and come up with many theories to reconcile free will and omniscience, but most eventually fall back on the convenient inevitability that man cannot know the mind or will of god. I won't argue that last point, but it amazes me that they can make statements like that, then proceed to try anyways.

April 1, 2007, 6:15 AM

Well, they usually try to reconcile the paradoxes by ignoring particular points. For example, with the omnipotence paradox, they try to bypass the paradox by ignoring the point that not being able to lift the stone God creates implies that God is not omnipotent.

April 1, 2007, 8:33 AM

I believe in Free Will. Even if there is an overall plan, designed and distributed by God, it doesn't mean that people follow it. You could argue that it was already pre-calculated and accounted for... but even so I think you get first say and He just can easily manuver around any decision you make. It may already be predestined... but only because you chose it and he worked around it. I mean if you can do anything, working around a couple choice decisions isn't all that hard.

April 1, 2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar

Alright though, here's the problem - the bible also says that god is omniscient, meaning he knows everything.

If that is the case, then when he first created the world, he knew every single thing that would happen before any of it happened. Therefore, he knows what each and every one of his creations will choose before they are even aware that they have a choice.

If this were the case, can you really call it a choice, or free will at all? That's why I refer to the illusion of free will, you would think you had a choice, but your choice was already decided for you.

If that is the case than i have to agree with you.But still i hope that i make my choices by my self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aztec Triogal

I believe in Free Will. Even if there is an overall plan, designed and distributed by God, it doesn't mean that people follow it. You could argue that it was already pre-calculated and accounted for... but even so I think you get first say and He just can easily manuver around any decision you make. It may already be predestined... but only because you chose it and he worked around it. I mean if you can do anything, working around a couple choice decisions isn't all that hard.

i have to agree with that one couldent say it better.

April 2, 2007, 8:54 AM

Free agency: the ability to accept or deny Yahuveh.

April 2, 2007, 2:47 PM

And get damned for choosing not to accept God. They make that clear, unfortunately.