Rinoa to Ultimecia? - Page 2

April 14, 2007, 3:36 AM

Ok i copied this from a website - this is basically someone (Sir Bahamut) explaining fully the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory

Be warned - its long.

The Theory
Sorceresses and Immortality:
Sir Bahamut: "The theory at its core simply states that the Ultimecia you fight is in fact Rinoa in the future. Most gamers tend to draw the conclusion that Ultimecia only has part of Rinoa's powers, and don't think more of it. While this appears to be the most logical assumption, it is certainly not the only possible assumption! Let us however, dig beneath the core for a while.
Try to imagine the party in the final FMV. Rinoa and Squall are kissing and it seems the game will end blissfully. Focus on Rinoa now. Rinoa is a sorceress. Squall is her Knight. Edea tells us that a sorceress' Knight is supposed to help maintain the sorceress' mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure of the people (remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even an organisation made solely for killing them!). Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I don't think I have to remind you what kind of a sorceress Adel was!
As I was saying, Rinoa is a sorceress. Now, what if I were to say that a sorceress had either unlimited lifespan or prolonged life? You might frown, even laugh, and say I had no grounds for making that statement."
As demonstrated by Edea, Sorceresses do not age so long as they have the Sorceress Power. They reach full physical maturity but do not experience the effects of aging. Note how she looks much younger than her husband Cid. Due to this, Rinoa will outlive all of her friends and her love, Squall, and will then be left without them in a world that may fear and hate her due to her being a Sorceress. Without them, she will be without the affection that she thrives upon and will be forced to face oppression alone, without her Knight, resulting in her becoming insane.
While her own father is likely in line to become the President of Galbadia in the present and Squall's father is already the President of Esthar, they will not live forever and those who would not be so sympathetic toward Rinoa may succeed them. Further, they -- and possibly SeeD as well -- would be inclined to keep a close eye on her after she was rendered grief-stricken with losing her friends and her love -- who was also her Knight, her focal point of stability.
Sir Bahamut: "Suspicion is inevitable. It's human nature. Like Ultimecia says in her speech, sorceresses are condemned and hated. I kind of doubt Rinoa would be spared. Let's change our attention to a line uttered by Edea in the ending. A line so easily forgotten and overlooked, yet so crucial to this theory: 'In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers'.
What is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying in peace, obviously, but what does that entail? If dying in peace is normally, what is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying normally? What does that mean? Surely, it is possible that not 'dying in peace' could mean that the sorceress was still alive, just not 'properly'.
You could think of a sorceress being inflicted with a mortal wound, yet unable to die. We even have a source who has played the Japanese game who says that in the Japanese version, Edea actually says "A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers". For those of you who doubt this, here is a copy of his post after I asked him what Edea said in the ending:
NOTE: I never made a note of his username, and the topic he posted in dissapeared ages ago, so I cannot credit a name here. If anyone knows who it was, please contact me.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: One point to contest the matter of Sorceress immortality while they still possessed their powers is that Adel and several other Sorceresses killed in the game appear to die instantly after receiving fatal wounds. While Adel and the 11 Sorceresses encountered in Time Compression die instantly, that may be explained as well and will be addressed here.]
-begin post-
Edea: Excuse me, did a little boy come this way?
Squall: You don't need to worry, it'll be okay. In the end, that kid can't go anywhere.
Edea: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for him, but there's nothing that can be done.
(Ultimecia appears)
Squall: ....She's still alive?!
Edea: ...A sorceress, is it?
Squall: Yes, Mama Sensei [so much more amusing than "Matron"]. Though I was sure we had already defeated her.... step back please.
Edea: It's all right. There is no further need to fight. That sorceress is only seeking someone who will succeed her sorceress' power. A sorceress cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power. I, too.... am a sorceress, so I understand. I shall take on this sorceress' power. I don't want a child to become a sorceress.
Sorceress Ultimecia: I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away.
Squall: Mama Sensei!
Edea: Is it... over now I wonder?

Squall: Perhaps.
Edea: You called me "Mama Sensei." Who are you?
Squall: SeeD. A SeeD of Balamb Garden.
Edea: SeeD? Garden?
Squall: Mama Sensei thought up both SeeD and Garden. Garden raises SeeDs. SeeDs defeat the sorceress.
Edea: What are you talking about? You are... that child's future, aren't you?
Squall: .... Mama Sensei.
Edea: So, please go home. This isn't your place.
Childhood Squall: ..... Sis is gone. Am I all alone? Who's heeeeee?
Edea: It doesn't concern you. It's better if you don't know anything. You're the only Squall for whom it is all right to stay here. Do you know how to get back? Are you okay on your own?
It seems that a little bit of clarification on Ultimecia's final line is in order, for the general edification of the world. Heh heh. The verb that is used in the Japanese is "kieru," which can mean to fade, to disappear, to vanish, to dissolve, to cease being or to be extinguished, and can be used as a euphemism for "to die." I really should have provided a note on that, in order to elucidate what would otherwise simply have passed by unknown.
Now, to insert my own thoughts in this little matter; I shall say from the top that I am of the mind that Sorceresses have a limited lifespan, and are, therefore, subject to death, as any other human would be. Edea's line of "A sorceress cannot die while still a sorceress is immortal as long as she has her power, or that she cannot "rest in peace," as it were, until her powers are given to another candidate. Ultimecia doesn't WANT to die; that much is evident in her words. She's telling herself that she can't die like this, and the way she phrases it, in Japanese, is in the form of a sort of "proprietary imperative" (I am not a linguist, so the proper jargon is something with which I am not entirely familiar. If anyone who is familiar with Japanese linguistics and the classifying terminology should read this, feel free to instruct): taken at COMPLETE literal value (i.e. if one were to translate it word-for-word into English), one would get "Still... disappearing manner.... to it one must not go." Ugly as it is when ascribed according English semantic terms, it's a fairly common sentential construction in Japanese which expresses the fitness (or lack thereof) of a given action.
Anyway, the implication seems to be that Ultimecia is not willingly abandoning her powers, but rather, her body is goading her to proffer them up unto someone else, so that it can do the natural thing and expire. I would imagine, and this is pure supposition, that a sorceress who has been ostensibly "killed" yet is unable to give up her power would suffer tremendous pain; her body wants to die, and *is* dying, but cannot seek the grave until it is free of that which Hyne bequeathed.
-end post-
Does this source strike you as bad? Feel free to try and find an equally convincing source, but I am quite convinced by this. As long as a sorceress has her powers she cannot die. It seems that when a sorceress is 'killed', she gives away her powers simply because of how painful it would be to be frozen in the dying moment forever."
It would be akin to being eternally stuck in the moment of death, continuously experiencing the pain of the moment. It's only to be expected that a Sorceress would likely give up their powers so that they could die when in such a situation, as Adel and the 11 Sorceresses encountered as SeeD traveled to the future might have done.
Sir Bahamut: "...until a more convincing source comes along, we can prove sorceress immortality, and show how it makes perfect sense in the storyline, but we cannot prove infinite/prolonged lifespan. Here Hyne enters the picture. Remember in the story about him, he creates a few men and women for slaves, takes a nap, and then wakes up and finds them to have grown beyond his control. That means his nap lasted for anything from a few hundred years to several thousand years, plenty of evidence that he in any case had prolonged life, and any sorceresses after him could have inherited some, if not all of that gift. This entire argument shows that Rinoa could live on for "many generations", and that it is actually made very plausible based on ingame facts."
NOTE: The story of Hyne can be viewed here.
A couple of other points to contest this aspect of the theory are that Adel seeking a successor suggests that Sorceresses did not have eternal life, and that Ultimecia's hair being grey indicates that she was experiencing the effects of aging, something that wouldn't take place were she immortal.
Sir Bahamut: "Adel was at war with the rest of the world, and many in her country hated her, so chances of assassination were pretty damn high. Obviously, if she were 'broken in body' she'd want to give up her powers to someone capable of continuing where she left off."
As for the differences in Ultimecia and Rinoa's hair, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the Sorceresses encountered as Squall, Rinoa, and the others passed through Time Compression all bear physical distinctions that are much greater changes from "normal" bodies than simply having a different hair color from what they might have once had.
Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle:
During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words illustrate that Rinoa believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably, as Squall and her friends did: "Reflect on your..." "Childhood..." "Your sensation..." "Your words..." "Your emotions..." "Time..." "It will not wait..." "No matter..." "...how hard you hold on." "It escapes you..."
Time Compression:
Rinoa wanted to use Time Compression to control time and allow her to meet Squall again and be with him. Evidence to support this comes from Rinoa's statement while onboard the Ragnarok with Squall, before she was taken into custody by Esthar: "I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you..."
While it could be argued that Ultimecia's goal had nothing to do with meeting with Squall or making the moment on the Ragnarok stand still (all time up to at least the point of Adel's death was apparently caught in the Time Compression wave, which would include the moment on the Ragnarok, only its state of present in the Time Compressed Worl was when it was it the Kashkabald Desert, after Squall and Rinoa's moment together), this should be considered:
Sir Bahamut: "Rinoa's statement indicates a desire to keep time static, and doesn't have to be taken at face value.... The indication is that Rinoa wants time to stand still, wants time to suit her own wishes, something time compression certainly does. It puts all of time into one frozen point, giving her full control over it. Mad people do mad things, like wanting to become God and rewrite time."
Also, because Rinoa would have gone mad, or possibly due to GF-use, she may no longer remember her previous desire to use Time Compression to meet Squall.
The Location of Ultimecia's Castle:
This ties in with the previous aspect, Ultimecia's desire -- subconscious or otherwise -- to meet Squall also being illustrated by her having her Castle anchored near the Orphanage, which had the flower field behind it where she and Squall had promised to meet.
Rinoa And Possible Amnesia:
In regard to Rinoa's insanity and the possibility of her suffering amnesia, consider this:
Sir Bahamut: "Also take note of Rinoas GF usage. GF's slowly erase bits and pieces of your memory over time, so this could quite possibly amplify the insanity, so to speak. After all, Squall forgot large parts of his childhood after only a few years of GF usage, so if Rinoa kept on using GFs for some time, this could greatly affect her memory. She may even have used GFs just to forget Squall!"
Also, we can be certain that Ultimecia at least had some contact with a GF before Griever, as Tiamat was a GF she had taken control of. From using Scan: "Tiamat - Used to be a GF. Became a monster under Ultimecia's power. Its Dark Flare destroys all enemies."
The Possible Origin Of Ultimecia's Name:
Sir Bahamut: "(Quoting one named "Druff") 'In ancient Greece there was a king named Mausolus and a queen named Artemisia. When Mausolus died, Artemisia was so grief stricken and devoted that she made it the rest of her life's work to build him the greatest tomb ever built, which she did. The tomb was so amazing that it's one of the Seven Wonders of the World, and it's why extravegant tombs are known as 'mausoleums' to this day.
Well, in the Japanese version of FFVIII, Ultimecia is spelled 'arutimishia'. It's entirely possible that her name was intended to be Artemisia, but the translators mistakenly thought it was supposed to be Ultimecia, since the spell Ultima is spelled 'arutima' in Japanese.' (end quote) Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into a drink and drink it.
Consider then that Ultimecia is called 'Artemisia' in some translations (German for instance). In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do. Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close connection, almost sibling-like? Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she, despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies. Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.
Rinoa cannot handle life without her Knight and husband, to whom she is completely devoted and dependant of, and she 'becomes' Artemisia, the grieving wife. In the real life story, Artemisia goes rather insane, what with spending her entire life building his tomb. We all know what Artemisia did in the game."
Ultimecia's And Rinoa's Faces:
During the game's ending FMV, Ultimecia's face flashes over Rinoa's and she also bears quite a resemblance to Rinoa. While Edea, Zell, and Seifer's faces also flash over Rinoa's during that scene (Edea's doing so first and a total of five times even, whereas Ultimecia's does so only three times), there's a somewhat greater emphasis on those moments when Ultimecia's face does so.
Sir Bahamut: "Edea's face just flashes quite insignificantly past, while Ultimecias face first comes once, like Edeas. Then it comes closer to the screen, Ultimecia is now staring at you, in the midst of Rinoas face staring at you, and then finally after another brief clip of Rinoa, a close up of Ultimecias eyes are then seen staring intensely at you, before everything changes, the other faces flash in that weird "hole" and you end up seeing Rinoas helmet bursting (which could be taken as a symbol of Rinoa 'dying' and Ultimecia taking over if you would).
What were then Squares intentions at putting the only FMV pictures of Ultimecia over Rinoas face before Rinoas helmet bursting? One could take it as being nothing special, and that it shouldn't be single out among all the other weird images we see. But one could also take it as a hint of some connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia."
As for differences in Rinoa and Ultimecia's bodies (their shoulder-width and breast-sizes, for example), again, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the other Sorceresses encountered in the Time Compression wave all bear physical aspects that are much greater distinctions from what one would expect with "normal" bodies.
The Sorceresses' Wings:
In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white feathers, the same color as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown emerging from a group of black feathers, the same color as the feathers of Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Sorceress aside from Rinoa to be shown to have wings. This is an indication of who Rinoa will become.
Sir Bahamut: "...we [only] see two sorceresses in the game with wings. One with white wings, the other with black. Obviously, it can be interpreted as nothing special, but it can also be seen as a hint towards a connection... [though it could be argued, based on the theme of the game being love and Rinoa being representative of it and that which is good that] the connection may merely be representing that Rinoa is good and that Ultimecia, with Rinoas powers, is bad.
[Going back to the matter of the name "Artemisia" for a moment], the theme [of the game] has been said to be love, but I find it strange (well not really) that everyone only thinks of the happy side of love. It's as if love has only one side to it. No, love has a dark side. People can be driven mad by grief after loosing a love one. Love can twist people into doing evil things. Love isn't all happy, so the theory can easily be said to fit in with the theme of love."
Griever:
Squall carries a ring with a lion engraved upon it, the ring's name being "Griever." This is also the name of the GF that Ultimecia Summons during the final battle of the game and which she Junctions herself to during the course of the battle. During Final Fantasy VIII, Squall gives this ring to Rinoa. Perhaps Griever was contained within the ring the same as Doomtrain was contained within the Solomon Ring. Or perhaps it was even a creature that Rinoa herself created in honor of Squall.

April 14, 2007, 3:58 AM

Those last few points were actually pretty decent. I'm gonna have to stay half and half on this topic though... Just, silly to think this theory is real.

April 14, 2007, 8:59 AM

Humm Aeris you wouldn´t happen to have taken that from EOFF would you?

April 14, 2007, 9:14 AM

i think the only valid points are his greaver ring and maybe the position in where ultimecias catle is situated. Always found this theory kinda interesting however i do not believe rinoa is ultimecia. I think if the writers were to make this true they would put more obvious hints within the game

April 14, 2007, 1:55 PM

Alright. I thought about it AAAAND.......I got nothin. XD~

April 14, 2007, 2:03 PM

If this is the same Sir Bahamut of EOFF then forget about it the guy was a master of making this kind of Rinoa/Ultimecia threads and they always ended up closed!

Because we all presented different reasons to counter the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory and the guy always found an insane way to keep defending his theory it´s pathetic!

Saying that Rinoa is Ultimecia is as much worth to me as saying Ultimecia equals Quistis or Selphie i mean really...

April 14, 2007, 2:16 PM

Actually it quiet possible that it could be true problem is we will never know till Square tells us or makes something explaining it.

April 15, 2007, 4:52 AM

tee hee... thats my video

and i just made it as a joke lol idk if Rinoa really is Ultimecia, i think the character models are just similar... you could prolly do the same with Rinoa to Edea lol