Excuse me? I've been using the facts to prove that Cloud is not stronger than Zack. In all seriousness, if you expect to be taken seriously in a debate, you're at least going to have to try to support your argument. I've already provided several walls of text which, using facts from the FFVII Compilation, prove that Cloud has never shown himself to be any stronger than Zack. I suppose I could always review these facts, considering it was a few pages back and I wouldn't want to make anybody hunt for them.

First of all, Zack has, among other things, defeated Genesis in his prime (who was stated to be at least in the same league as Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth), Bahamut and several other powerful Summon Spirits, Angeal, and over one hundred ShinRa MPs supported by three members of SOLDIER and who had air support. Keep in mind that, during all of these fights, Zack was alone. As in he had nobody there to help him. In SOLDIER, Zack was second only to Sephiroth himself in terms of combat ability, which means that he was among the best of the best.

Compare this to Cloud, who doesn't have nearly as many impressive feats of that magnitude to his name, at least not that he accomplished on his own. All that he did during FFVII, he did with the support of the entire party. In Advent Children, he, again, needed the party to help him defeat Bahamut. Yes, he put up a fight against Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz, but he never actually beats all three of them at once. Rather, he beat Yazoo and Loz, then fought Kadaj separately. I don't see how this puts him above Zack.

Returning to the subject of Sephiroth, Cloud never once defeats him in a fair, one-on-one fight that the both of them were taking seriously. Their first encounter (in the Mako Reactor) can't be counted because, by the time Sephiroth was made aware of Cloud's existence, he had already been stabbed through the back with a sword that was larger than he was. Cloud cheapshotted him from behind, which was the only reason he was able to lift and throw him into the Lifestream. If Sephiroth hadn't been impaled from behind when he wasn't paying attention, Cloud wouldn't have lasted two seconds.

Their second fight was in the Lifestream...or North Crater, depending on how you look at it. This one can't be counted, either, despite Jimmy's rather nonsensical argument that it can. Sephiroth, you see, had just had his body ripped to shreds by all of Crisis AVALANCHE. That means that, for the past couple of hours, he had been fighting against Cloud and seven other powerful fighters. After this 8-on-1 handicapped match, Sephiroth was bound to be exhausted considering...well...his physical body had been destroyed. So, by the time Cloud arrived on the scene to clean up his remains, Sephiroth was already in an extremely weakened state. Had Cloud just gotten finished fighting all of Crisis AVALANCHE? No? Then his own fatigue can't be used as an argument.

Then comes their duel in Advent Children, in which Sephiroth doesn't even consider Cloud a legitimate threat. He refuses to use any of his abilities other than swordsmanship, flight, and telekinesis (on one occasion, and he doesn't even use it against Cloud), and thus, is severely limiting himself for sake of prolonging Cloud's suffering. In fact, if that's not good enough, I'll list just a few of the ways Sephiroth could've ended the fight:
1. Sephiroth could have, again, simply held Cloud still with telekinesis. Assuming Cloud's body doesn't get ripped to shreds by the sheer telekinetic pressure sent his way by Sephiroth, he would be completely helpless to defend himself against Sephiroth's Masamune.
2. Sephiroth could have turned himself intangible. Cloud's sword would've gone right through him, at which point he would've turned tangible again and finished Cloud off.
3. Sephiroth could have bombarded Cloud with a repeated onslaught of Supernovas and magical spells. Yes, Cloud probably could've dodged the first few, but without the party to back him up, he wouldn't be able to last long at all before being blasted to smitherenes without even getting close enough to Sephiroth to hit him.
4. This is the big one. Sephiroth had Cloud pinned to the wall. Cloud was out of breath and struggling to so much as stand, whereas Sephiroth himself wasn't drained of stamina in the slightest. At this point, Sephiroth could've simply stabbed Cloud through one of his vital organs, thus ending the battle.

As you can see, Sephiroth was in complete control. The only reason it looked like Cloud was putting up a fight was because Sephiroth wasn't even trying. Compare this to Sephiroth's fight against Zack, in which he uses every ability available to him in order to finish his opponent off. Swordsmanship, flight, Iakiri, Octoslash, teleportation, the works. He doesn't pull any punches, which is why Zack loses so quickly.

Of course this was just a recap.

Cloud duel with Sephiroth in FFVII in the North Crater happened and it as to be considered as one of their encounters, and the only thing that we can suspect is that Sephiroth was tired, as much as Cloud was. Nobody states that Sephiroth in the fight in the North Crater (last duel one on one with Cloud) allowed Cloud to finish him off.

Just like to point that out, cause i saw my name mentioned lol

Now you're just not listening to reason at all. This is just...not a logical argument in the slightest. Yes, Cloud was probably tired, but he hadn't been through nearly as much punishment as Sephiroth had. Sephiroth, unlike Cloud, had just gotten finished fighting against eight other people. For the vast majority of the fight, he was horrendously outnumbered. Cloud, meanwhile, had been in a group for that whole fight. Yes, he was also tired, but the only reason Cloud was tired in the first place was because he was weaker than Sephiroth to begin with. If Cloud were as strong as Sephiroth, he wouldn't have been tired by the time they fought in the North Crater, because he still would've had Crisis AVALANCHE to back him up.

I don't really see how you're even justifying this one. If you put one incredibly powerful person against eight strong individuals, then against three of those individuals in a second round, the first person is going to be tired. Cloud didn't fight Sephiroth on even terms. All Cloud did was come in after Sephiroth had been severely weakened to near-death by all of Crisis AVALANCE. If Cloud was tired, that was only a sign of his own weakness because he hadn't been through nearly as much as Sephiroth had.

I mean, how else can I explain this? It's just simple logic, really. Sephiroth had been fighting for hours against eight individuals (one of which was Cloud), whereas Cloud had been fighting for hours against one individual with the help of seven other people. He had people there to support him, whereas Sephiroth did not. If Cloud had been put up against the rest of Crisis AVALANCHE, do you really think that he would've lasted more than two minutes? If Cloud had gone to North Crater alone, do you honestly believe that he could've taken Sephiroth out all by himself?

For a fight to be fair, both combatants have to start out at their full strength. If nothing else, neither of them can be handicapped. Sephiroth was handicapped in the sense that he had just spent the past eight hours fighting against eight people at one time. Cloud, being part of those eight people, was not handicapped, because he'd just spent the past couple of hours fighting against Sephiroth in a group of eight people. If he didn't have those eight people to support him, he wouldn't have even been able to beat Bizarro Sephiroth. The only reason Cloud lasted until the duel in North Crater is because he was a member of Crisis AVALANCHE. Had he been forced to take on Sephiroth in a fair fight, Cloud would've been dead in minutes. Now you're really grasping at straws. Your argument this time doesn't even make sense on a fundamental level.

No it's not, you're the one who is being stubborn (sorry but that's how i feel), you admit that Sephiroth was weakened and tired, and that Cloud was much more fresh because you ignore half the things Cloud and the gang, did before fighting Sephiroth, they descended through the North Crater, battled Jenova, and add to still find enough streght to break free of Sephiroths mental prison, destroy Bizarro Sephiroth, destroy Safer Sephiroth, and in the end find enough streght to destroy Sephiroth in a one on one duel with Cloud.

It's not so hard to understand that Cloud just be as equally or more tired after having to endure all this punishement. It's just pure denial.

Also in AC, the same thing can serve as argument, Cloud had already destroyed Bahamut (with his teammates), then went on a chase after Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj, battled and defeated Kadaj and after all that still battled Sephiroth and found enough streght to resist him and finish him, even though Sephiroth did not use his full power.

Also your argument about Sephiroth started shooting Super Novas until he finally hit Cloud is not relevant, no matter how much power he as there as to be a limit and a point as you already said when even him gets tired.

He does not block Cloud with his mental powers because most likely it would not work like it did not in FFVII, and disapearing when Cloud tried to hit him and then immediately reapering again does not mean he could hit Cloud and kill him, even reapearing it would take 1-2 seconds to do this, and if Cloud can block a bullet which travels much faster in a short range i'm pretty sure he can also block Sephiroth sword.


And again, no matter how much power Sephiroth used on Cloud, nobody can deny that he used his flying ability and his powers to gain advantage over Cloud, while with Zack he only uses hi sword skills. It's more then enough to prove that Cloud faced and did better against Sephiroth then Zack did. You can keep quoting all you want it does not change this simple and understandable fact. Thank you.

I don't know, where did you get this info from? It did not seem to be inside Clouds mind.

That's pretty interesting, so the last battle between Cloud and Sephiroth would have been another attempt of Sephiroth to control Cloud, and Clouds victory proves that Sephiroth can no longer influence Cloud anymore, and it does indeed prove that Cloud as grown in power.