Well i doubt Bahamut was worn out at all.

And if you're basing yourself on a game...then Cloud alone or with help defeated a lot of monsters as well, including Jenova.

And yes you're right Cloud might have lost to all three of them (Yazoo, Kadaj and Loz) if Vincent had not appeared, yet he manages to fight them alone, and they are certainly not weaklings as Yazoo or Loz (don't remember which one) defeated Tifa and both of them defeated Reno and Rude.

He'd been fighting for two hours. That's going to take its toll on him regardless of how much physical damage he'd sustained, if only due to the sheer length of the fight. His stamina was bound to be wearing at least a little bit thin by then, if nothing else, and I'm sure that Crisis AVALANCE dealt a fair amount of damage by the time Cloud showed up. Yes, Cloud probably did most of the work, but had he been on his own, he would've lost that fight.

That's just ridiculous. By that logic, nothing Zack or Cloud has ever done should count. I'm not basing my argument around Gameplay. Storyline-wise, Zack performed all of those feats on his own. According to FFVII canon, Zack didn't have help against those ShinRa Soldiers. He brought them down all by his lonesome. There is no Party System in Crisis Core, nor does Zack visibly have help judging from the cutscenes and FMV's, so all that Zack accomplishes in Crisis Core, he accomplishes by himself. However, as far as the FFVII Storyline is concerned, Cloud had help during all of those fights, as evidenced by the fact that other characters appear alongside him during the cutscenes. Even if you do a Solo Cloud challenge, at least two other characters will always be on-screen with Cloud during cutscenes. To deny that, canonically, Cloud had help during FFVII is nothing more than blatant fanboyism.

*Spoilers*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U24uLU3TzsU

There. Canonically, that happens during Crisis Core. Do you see anyone or anything helping Zack out? He defeats Genesis on his own. In the cutscenes before and after the fight (and during gameplay) there are no other party members to help him out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_tFxgxr2YQ

Take note of the fact that, regardless of what you do, Cloud always has a party member to either side of him during this fight. Storyline-wise, Cloud has help during this and every other battle in FFVII with few exceptions (such as his one-on-one match against Rufus).

*/Spoilers*

Bahamut does not show any sign of being worn out by their attacks, if you could actually say that he seems tired or beaten before Cloud appears that would be one thing, but he does not.

I haven't played that game with Zack, but all you show me is him fighting some guy called Genesis, who must be weaker then Sephiroth if Zack can beat him, also it seems both this Genesis and the other person (i don't know if it's Zack or not) together can't beat Sephiroth either. And regardless of what you say Cloud was able to kill Sephiroth, it does not matter if Sephiroth was toying with him, because he was killed, and Sephiroth did not allow Cloud to beat him. He does not show any effort also while fighting the Genesis fellow and that other guy.

And in Last Order we see Sephiroth surprised at Clouds streght, even after having been pierced by Sephiroths sword Cloud sents Sephiroth against a wall, Sephiroth ends up going away and we are left not knowing what would happen if he had stayed, but you can not contest that we see Cloud showing much more resiliance then Zack.

In an fairness to Zack, we never see him putting up half the fight we see Cloud put up against Sephiroth, who as you put it is the strongest being in FFVII universe.

I never said anything about Cloud fighting everyone alone, so that fanboysm stuff does not aplly to me as i don't even like Cloud.

Also we see Zack fighting an army of Shinra soldiers, killing them in one hit, which Cloud can also easily do, also i'm pretty sure any Soldier 1st Class could last a while against normal Shinra troops.

I was just wondering, If you don't know anything about Zack's accomplishments and even worse what he even looks like, how can you judge who's better??

Cause ever since i saw this topic i have seen all of Crisis Cores videos, and all of Zacks battle sequences and videos, so although i have not played the game i probably know enough to say that there is nothing in that video that proves Zack is better then Cloud, all it shows is that Zack was a good fighter, but i'm guessing all 1st Class Soldiers are.

That doesn't change the fact that Bahamut had been fighting for two hours. I'm not saying that he was exhausted by the time Cloud showed up, but he had to have been at least a bit fatigued. Besides, you fail to realize that none of Cloud's basic attacks have any more of an effect on Bahamut than the rest of Crisis AVALANCHE's. Only Braver actually caused any decent damage to him. As far as his regular sword techniques were concerned, Bahamut shrugged them off like they were minor annoyances. Other than Braver, the only attack that caused damage to Bahamut was Climhazzard, which Cloud was only able to use so quickly because Aerith helped him out.

First of all, Genesis is pretty damn close to Sephiroth's level. In fact, it's speculated by many that Genesis is Sephiroth's equal. Pay attention during the Sephiroth vs. Genesis video. About thirty seconds into the fight, Genesis decides to go up against Sephiroth one-on-one, and he fares incredibly well. In fact, the only reason he's unable to keep up is because Angeal keeps interrupting him during his strongest attacks. He managed to get Sephiroth on the ropes at least once during that battle, which is no small feat. Honestly, don't be so quick to write Genesis off as a weakling. He's definitely one of the strongest fighters in the FFVII Universe.

Furthermore, it wouldn't matter even if Genesis were weaker than Sephiroth, because so are Cloud and Zack. I don't see what's so difficult to grasp about that. If Cloud or Zack went up against Sephiroth in a fair, one-on-one fight, they would be completely dominated in a matter of seconds. I can guarentee it. Neither one of them would put up any sort of fight against Sephiroth if he were going all-out. You can't use Sephiroth to help determine Cloud or Zack's strength because they're both so far below him that it doesn't really matter.

Yes, Sephiroth was surprised by Cloud's strength because he was nothing more than a mere ShinRa MP at the time. The fact that he was surprised most certainly didn't mean that Cloud was anywhere near his level, it just meant that he had a sort of strength that a ShinRa MP shouldn't have had. Let me put it to you this way: If a toddler came up to me and cheapshotted me in the stomach while I wasn't looking, I don't think I'd be all that worried about getting hurt. However, if a toddler cheapshotted me in the stomach while I wasn't looking and knocked the wind out of me, I'd be pretty surprised. Does that mean that the toddler could beat me in a fair fight? No, but it does mean that he's the strongest toddler I've ever seen. That's all that Sephiroth was saying; Cloud was far more powerful than a regular ShinRa MP should've been.

Oh, and as far as Crisis Core is concerned, Sephiroth didn't jump into the Lifestream. Like in FFVII, he was thrown in by Cloud. It was re-retconned. Besides, even if Sephiroth didn't fall into the Lifestream, it wouldn't have mattered. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about "He had just been stabbed through the back with the Buster Sword." Honestly, Cloud came up from behind and impaled him with a sword that was larger than he was while Sephiroth wasn't paying attention. By the time Sephiroth even realized that Cloud existed, he'd been impaled and was probably in the process of dying of bloodloss. Even with that in mind, though, had Sephiroth taken Cloud on in a fair fight at that point, I still think that it would've just been a simple matter of carelessly swatting him away.

That's irrelevent. Again, Sephiroth wasn't even trying against Cloud in Advent Children. If he wanted to, he could've ended that fight at any given moment. I can guarentee it. If Cloud were to go up against a Sephiroth who was actually exerting any kind of effort, he would get utterly dominated in a matter of seconds. Zack and Cloud are both equally outclassed by a Sephiroth who actually takes them seriously, so you can't cite Cloud's fight against Sephiroth in Advent Children as a reason for him being superior to Zack.

Actually, no they couldn't. Yes, it's true that a SOLDIER is vastly superior to any normal ShinRa troop, but that doesn't change the fact that Zack was going up against over a hundred of them, each armed with a machine gun or a melee weapon and who had air support. Besides, if you look closely after the fight, you'll see three SOLDIER helmets lying around on the ground. That basically means that Zack defeated over a hundred ShinRa troops (again, with air support) AND three members of SOLDIER. Yes, on their own, ShinRa MPs aren't very impressive, but what makes the feat an incredible one is the fact that there were so damn many of them.

Genesis can't be considered equal in terms of Sephiroth because he was beaten by Zack, and i re-watched the video and i desagree with you when you say he put Sephiroth in the ropes, because honestly Sephiroth does not seem damaged at all by Genesis attacks. And if one says that Sephiroth was not fighting seriously against Cloud or Zack, then we can also say he was not giving his all against Genesis.


And in my opinion after re-watching Sephiroth vs Zack, and Sephiroth vs Cloud (the battle sequence videos) i think we see both Sephiroth and Cloud on a different level then Zack, but that's just my opinion. And if you watched as i'm sure you have the battle sequence between Cloud and Sephiroth, and you see Clouds moves, don't you think he could also go up against a Shinra army? Because no matter how many Shinra soldiers there were with air support, tanks, or more...Sephiroth is probably better then all of them put together.