Dreamer- Ahem...Sephiroth was just toying with Cloud, as stated by the creators. I just thought I'd get that out of the way early on. Anyway...

As of the end of Advent Children, I consider Cloud and Zack to be equals. That's one of the underlying themes of the Final Fantasy Compilation, if you pay attention to it. I really don't see either one being weaker or stronger than the other, simply considering how the two of them are portrayed and presented to us throughout the Compilation. It's a bit difficult to describe, but Cloud really seemed to have reached a certain plateau by the time Advent Children came around, if that makes any sense. I think this is one of those times where being the main character simply gives Cloud an advantage. By that I mean that one of the messages the creators were trying to portray was that Cloud had grown significantly since the beginning of Final Fantasy VII.

Throughout FFVII, Cloud constantly talks about having the strength of a 1st Class SOLDIER, but I don't really think he had the skill to back that statement up, at least not at the beginning of the game. In the first part of FFVII, I'd consider Cloud to be a bit stronger than the average 3rd Class SOLDIER. He fights well enough to make people think that he really was a member of SOLDIER at one point in time, but he definitely isn't as strong as Zack. Around the end of Disc 1 (or halfway through the game), I'd say that Cloud has the strength of a 2nd Class SOLDIER. He's bound to have gained a bit of skill with the blade, whereas he had to rely primarily on raw strength before due to his overall lack of experience with a sword.

Towards the end of the game, when Cloud "discovers" himself during his dip in the Lifestream, I'd say that's when Cloud finally gains the strength of a 1st Class SOLDIER. Remember, the one thing preventing him from getting into SOLDIER in the first place was the fact that he doubted himself. Physically, he qualified for SOLDIER, but the candidates must qualify physically and mentally to actually get in. It's like any athlete or soldier in real life; if their heads aren't in the game and they don't have confidence in their abilities, their performance will suffer. Once Cloud conquered the mental aspect of himself, he became a stronger fighter.

However, you also have to remember that Zack was above and beyond the average 1st Class SOLDIER. He wasn't just 1st Class material, he was well above that. He was, after all, described as the 2nd best SOLDIER after Sephiroth. In other words, if there were another level above 1st Class, that's where Zack and Seph would've been. So, while Cloud most certainly had come a long way by the end of FFVII, I'd say that he still fell a bit short of Zack. This guy was just something else. He took out a small army of ShinRa MPs and three SOLDIERS (all of whom had air support), proved himself superior to Angeal, defeated Genesis in his prime...Zack was definitely more impressive a fighter than any other normal 1st Class SOLDIER.

Even so, Nomura did say that Cloud had ascended to a higher level than he achieved at the end of FFVII during Advent Children. Towards the beginning of AC, I'd definitely say that he was significantly weaker due to Geostigma. Even so, once he lost the Stigma (and also his self-doubt), that's when I think he became Zack's equal. Cloud's growth as a person and as a combatant have just been such a large focal point of the Compilation, I don't really see how he could still be weaker than Zack, from a logical standpoint.

Realistically, though, there's no way of definitively proving who's stronger. The two have both done some impressive stuff in the past to the point where they're too close to compare without bias effecting the answer. That's my real reason for writing them off as equals. They're so very close that it's basically impossible to say which is stronger without sounding like a fanboy of one of them.

Well done. You definately have some very good points, and im happy we agree on alot of things.

Well...that was pleasant. I didn't honestly expect a debate to be resolved so easily. Yes, I'm glad we've reached an agreement as well.

...I really don't know how I can stretch this post into multiple paragraphs...*cough* I'm honestly not used to people being so agreeable in debates.

haha... I guess when im wrong im wrong

I don't think it's really possible to be "wrong" in this case. You could make an argument for either Cloud or Zack and support it with hard facts from the Compilation. That's the only reason why I write them off as equals. I mean, for everyone who says "Zack is better because he beat Genesis," there's going to be someone else who replies with "Well, I think Cloud is better because, even with Geostigma, he put up a fight against Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz." Both arguments make perfect sense given the appropriate point of view, so it's really quite difficult to argue in favor of either Cloud or Zack without coming across as a bit biased. That's the only reason I consider them equals.

But wasn't Sephiroth stronger dan Genesis and Angeal? Di fact is Zack couldn't defeat di strongest of di three and cloud did. I know Sephiroth always played wid Cloud but who does Sephiroth doesn't play wid. For ex di scene wid Sephiroth fighting Genesis who won.

None of Cloud's victories against Sephiroth can be used as evidence to support his strength. The fact of the matter is, Cloud is really the only person who Sephiroth outright refuses to take seriously. Yes, he always keeps a level head in combat and will rarely make his anger known, but he certainly doesn't toy with his other opponents to the degree he messes around with Cloud. It's basically been drilled into our heads throughout the Compilation that Sephiroth holds a special kind of grudge against Cloud. He will take every opportunity he can think of to torture the poor guy and makes absolutely certain to draw out his misery for as long as possible.

It's basically just Sephiroth's way of trying to redeem himself. Imagine yourself in his shoes. Sephiroth was the world's strongest fighter as well as ShinRa's pride and joy. He'd performed feats of raw strength that no other warrior could hope to match. Then, just as he was about to escape with his "Mother's" head, he was offed by a lowly ShinRa MP. A grunt! This kid wasn't even infused with Mako or JENOVA cells, yet, by some stroke of all but impossible luck, managed to overpower Sephiroth. For someone as mentally deranged as Sephy, this means one thing and one thing only: "Revenge." He wants nothing more than to drill it into Cloud's skull that he is the superior warrior, and that Cloud only came out of that Mako Reactor alive because of beginner's luck.

As stated, Sephiroth never toys with his opponents like he does with Cloud. In each of their encounters, he was hardly even using a fraction of his abilities, whereas he at least takes anyone else he fights seriously. He simply doesn't consider Cloud a threat. To Sephiroth, it's like he's being attacked by a five-year old. Consider this: he never uses telekinesis, his ability to turn intangible, magic, Octoslash, or Iakiri against Cloud during their battle in Advent Children. All he does is swat the poor guy around like a ragdoll using his Masamune. At the very least, when fighting someone like Zack or Genesis, Sephiroth uses his full range of abilities.

Yes, Sephiroth is always a confident little bugger, to be sure, and he always tries to keep a level head about him, but that just shows that he's able to keep calm under pressure. It's actually very rare that he will just outright refuse to take an opponent seriously.

Oh, and...

The battle was a draw. At that point in time, Sephiroth and Genesis were equals. Both of them took the fight seriously and neither one emerged victorious.

I personally think Cloud would've been stronger even if Zack was still alive

now hold up oathkeeper so yer telling me Sephiroth gave cloud a gimme kill everytime.