if anyone here would read nomuras ultimanias guide to FFVII, it says that sephiroth never tried against cloud, he always toyed with him. Ex: cloud giving his all in advent children, sephiroth not breaking a sweat. All of you people seem to think that sense cloud beat sephiroth in the game, nibelheim, and advent children that he is better. YOUR WRONG! Cloud was only able to do what he did in nibelheim because he took sephiroth by suprise by stabbing him from the back, then sephiroth was suprised again when cloud lifted him off the ground and didnt react. In 7 and advent children, sephiroth just didnt try. The guide also says that Sephiroth did give it his all while facing zack, and in crisis core and last order, we can all see zack holding his own remotely well. So all in all, sephiroth trying his hardest against zack, zack doing good but losing in the end, vs cloud giving his all, against sephiroth basically mocking him and winning... I think its obvious that zack is the winner here, and if that doesnt convince you, look at zacks skills from last order and crisis core compared to clouds ac. Zack being able to dodge bullets with ease, deflect the few that are needed, take on tons of shinra troops without breaking a sweat, compared to cloud only being able to do not even half of that, seen while battling yazoo and loz.

Clearly the winner is zack.

You know what was stupid though - why didnt Sephiroth let go of Masamune's handle?

I lol'd

and agree with mikefriend

yes the guide says that but u are still putting the strength of past sephiroth and AC sephiroth in the same category. AC sephiroth is far superior than he was when he fought Zack. Also in AC I saw Cloud dodge many bullets also. Also Im not finished playing Crisis core but I have seen Cloud cut through buildings. Im still waiting to see if Zack has done something similar. In terms of strength I believe Cloud eventually passed Zack in AC but not saying Zack is a weakling. I think people are discediting Cloud too much in this forum

I also thought that cutting through buildings was just for the movie until they showed sephiroth doing it in Crisis Core. Lol yea I dont know why everyone was defying grravity in the movie

Don't worry, Booger. Oathkeeper to the rescue.


Zack also fought Genesis in his prime at the very end of the game. In fact, he fought what would obviously be an even stronger Genesis, considering he was in his Avatar Form during the first part of that battle. Avatar Genesis, if I had to hazard a guess, would probably be the equivalent of Bizarro Sephiroth, but then again, that's just pure speculation on my part. Either way, it's definitely safe to say that Avatar Genesis>Genesis in his Prime>Degenerating Genesis. However, even if that weren't the case, and, by some totally warped logic, Avatar Genesis<Genesis in his Prime, Zack still overpowered Genesis in his prime immediately after overpowering Avatar Genesis (Genesis was no longer degenerating after that fight). This basically means that Zack>Genesis, regardless of the form Genesis happens to be in at the time.


Oh, one more thing, just to relieve you of your fears, Booger.

The "experiments" Cloud went through were nothing more than the regular SOLDIER treatment. You know, the exact same treatment that Zack went through. Really, there was no difference at all. Cloud was given JENOVA Cells and showered with Mako. That's the exact same thing any other member of SOLDIER goes through. What's more, when Zack went through that same procedure, he didn't even get the toxicosis in the first place. That's because he was strong enough to resist JENOVA's will.

Besides, Zack's most impressive feats happen after he gets the second SOLDIER treatment, so it's entirely possible that it enhanced his strength. Pre-Nibelheim Zack had trouble beating a degenerating Genesis, whereas Post-Nibelheim Zack was able to defeat Genesis in his Avatar Form. Post-Nibelheim Zack also defeats the ShinRa Army. I dunno about you all, but I really didn't think that Zack could do something like that.

Yeah, Advent Children was bullshit, but to simply discount it in a Vs. Topic because you didn't like it is just unreasonable. Did I like the rest of the FFVII Compilation? No. I thought that it tarnished the once-good name of an incredible RPG. However, the fact remains that, according to the creators of Final Fantasy VII, the characters can do everything they did in Advent Children. Besides, Cloud definitely does not fly during Advent Children. He leaps incredible distances and defies several known laws of physics, but he doesn't fly. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed any help reaching Bahamut. Even so, you seem to be forgetting that all of Zack's impressive feats of strength take place in the FFVII "Expanded Universe," as well. In FFVII, all we see him do is get gunned down by two ShinRa MP's. Back then, I really don't think anyone thought he could've taken on one hundred MP's armed with machine-guns and such.

So I agree that AC was a pile, but it certainly isn't irrelevent within the context of a Vs. Topic. If we make AC irrelevent, then we have to make Crisis Core irrelevent as well, which means that all we have to judge Zack by is a few seconds in which he performs less-than-spectacularly against a couple of lowly MP's. Besides, it's not really that much of a stretch to assume that people like Cloud and Zack can pull off stunts of that sort. Remember, even in the original FFVII script, it's blatantly stated that those who undergo the SOLDIER treatment receive superhuman strength. You can see it in FFVII if you look hard enough/have an open mind about it. Cloud, after all, survived a fall from Midgar's upper plate, which is obviously pretty damn high up. Additionally, the fact that he can effectively use the Buster Sword (which easily weighs more than he does) in heated combat pretty much says that he's beyond human in terms of strength.

Of course, I do think that Advent Children exaggerated what the characters can and can't do a bit, but you can't deny that it happened. It's part of the continuity now, whether we like it or not. Don't get me wrong, I hate the rest of the Compilation. It ruined Sephiroth's character and brought about two types of people: 1) Ignorant FFVII fanboys, and 2) Ignorant FFVII haters, both of whom I simply can't stand. The fact that Nomura has a boner for Gackt and insists upon making all of his characters resemble them doesn't help, either. However, it all happened and must be taken into consideration during Vs. Topics such as these.

However, that doesn't mean that Cloud is stronger than Zack. First of all, Cloud never slashes through entire buildings. He slashes through pieces of debris. There's obviously a huge difference in size, there. This doesn't make any of Zack's feats any less impressive, though. You say Cloud dodged bullets from two guns? Well, yes, that's certainly very impressive, but Zack went up against bullets from one hundred machine guns, bombs from helicopters, and three swords (the members of SOLDIER) while fighting with a close-range weapon. Cloud beat Kadaj? Okay, well Zack beat Avatar Genesis. Cloud finished off a fatigued Bahamut with help? Zack beat Bahamut all by his lonesome.