It's amazing how one can completely manipulate all facts in order to make Cloud seem inferior to Zack.

Story Wise Sephiroth does not use any of those skills against Zack he dominates Zack in about 10 moves, this is thread is getting pointless all of your statements have already been proved wrong. What we see here and as i already explained, is reducing all of Cloud's work in comparison to Zack's personal victories in Crisis Core.

It comes down to the point that you consider Cloud to be nothing alone, anybody who reads all of your posts can see it.

I on the other hand, as well as anybody else who defends that Cloud is indeed superior to Zack, recognize all that Zack as done.

When you completely despise all of Cloud's battles against Sephiroth, even after witnessing that Sephiroth does use his powers against Cloud, after deglecting the battle at the Lifestream, after ignoring the events of Nibelheim with Cloud, the discussion stops being rational.

I manipulate nothing. I go by what we see in the FFVII Compilation and nothing more. You, however, have manipulated fundamental logic to make Zack seem superior to Cloud.

And how do you know that Sephiroth dominates Zack in all of 10 moves? I think it's fairly obvious that there's a battle we didn't see. Furthermore, my points have not been proved wrong. I admit that some of them may very well be incorrect. However, you have yet to provide me with any evidence to prove that to me. All you've done is submit half-baked arguments that defy logical thinking on a fundamental level. Why should I even take into consideration anything you say if you're not even willing to listen to reason? Hell, you said that Sephiroth restraining 8 people is no different than him restraining 1 person. That's just ridiculous.

Except that, if you had actually paid attention to anything I said, you'd realize that I consider Cloud to be an incredibly competent fighter. He's definitely one of the stronger warriors in FFVII and undoubtedly a powerhouse in his own right. In fact, if you look at my first post in the thread, you'd see that I considered Cloud and Zack equals. However, though I don't neccessarily think either one of them is stronger than the other, I still recognize that your points make no sense at all. Half of your arguments are based around your own inability to think with common sense.

That may be true. I can't really argue with you there because it's definitely true that you never denounced Zack's own personal feats.

Excuse me, but the discussion stopped being rational when you said that Sephiroth manipulating 8 people with telekinesis is no different than Sephiroth manipulating 1 person with telekinesis. And no, you've yet to present me with evidence that suggests that Sephiroth ever uses all of his powers against Cloud. If you have all of these facts that prove me wrong, answer my questions: Why didn't Sephiroth use telekinesis against Cloud? Intangibility? Supernova? Magic? Iakiri? Octoslash? If you watch the battle in Advent Children, you'll see that Sephiroth doesn't use any of these abilities against Cloud. He uses telekinesis once, and he doesn't even use it on Cloud. What happened to the rest of his powers?

Actually, the theory that Sephiroth wasn't at 100% in AC has been discredited. The developers have stated that Sephiroth was actually at his strongest in Advent Children because his body was composed entirely of JENOVA Cells and Lifestream. However, while I must agree that we can't prove indefinitely which one is stronger, you have to remember that this is the case with any Vs. Topics. Nobody can prove indefinitely whether one character is stronger than another, but we still feel the need to speculate. That's just what we do. I know it doesn't make sense, but when you think about it, there's no rhyme or reason to the workings of an elitist.

I don't honestly think that Square-Enix would respond. Hell, knowing Tetsuya Nomura, he probably doesn't know himself. >_>;

I desagree on YouTube they show the entire videos of CC, all that they don't show is battle mechanics, so seeing it is more then enough to judge Zack's power, according to that line of tought we would have to consider Zack the stronger simply because he as much more HP or can deal much more damage then Cloud or any other character in FFVII. YouTube provides us who don't have a PSP with a pretty good perception of all of CC, i did not know who Genesis was before i read this topic and now i know some important facts about him, just for example.

Oathkeeper what you said in your first post is relevant, but what you did afterwards is completely different, you said on your posts that we can't consider any of Clouds battles with Sephiroth reason enough to prove anything, and that's wrong just because the creators say that Sephiroth was toying with Cloud, is not enough for one to descredit that fight, and to consider null that for one second Cloud was good enough to finish a cocky Sephiroth, you use the fact that Sephiroths tired but consider the fact that Cloud had also fought just before fighting Sephiroth not important, you say the most powerful being in FFVII universe is tired after fighting AVALANCHE, but disregard that the fact that Cloud passed through a lot to even reach Sephiroth. All this points deserve to be taken into consideration when evaluating Cloud.

agree totally aerith - i reckon theyre equal

and seriously jimmy give it up - give the game a try and argue your side without ignorance

and crisis core rox

If you read my posts you will see that i never said Zack was a weakling, i never discount what he did and i think it's amazing. But i don't know if that was a critic to me or not.

Red Mage i'm not even gonna comment what you wrote, provocation is not my kind of thing. And no unfortunately i won't give the game a try because i don't have a PSP, sucks i know.