Interpreting FFVII's ending. - Page 3

September 16, 2007, 6:58 PM

Ronin, it is a pleasure to talk with you. Just when I thought I knew how smart you are, you surprise me yet again. Solid post, man. Again, I do have a couple of points I'd like to talk about, even though I agree with everything else.

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Exactly. It's our heightened sentience and technology that make us so prone to violence

The problem I have with that is [i]every[/li] animal is violent. I don't believe we are any more prone to violence than anything else. The difference is that the scope of the violence is far greater, and has even taken a toll on the environment.

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I think it didn't show humans at the end of VII for a reason. The lesser animal forms were the ones who could coexist with nature perfectly, humans could never be able to do that. Even if the planet did rebirth humans, there would always be the few who rejected the utopia and wanted more. Animals can be content if they're simply given an environment to live peacefully in. Humans, as a whole, can't seem to learn to be content.

It's true, I agree. I think a central theme of FFVII dealt with Mankind's inability to live in harmony with the planet. Unfortunately, our social structures and rapid population growth make living in a way other than depleting our natural resources very difficult.

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See that's what I've been saying all along! But someone *coughSummonerYunacough* thinks that indifference isn't enough reason to wipe out humanity.

Well, to be fair, it's hard to imagine that the developers would get that deep in their message. It's a video game, after all, and happy endings benefit the industry. And the ending we are supposing is the most dire of all endings.

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Well, put yourself in the planet's position. Say you have a species living on you, and as they progress technologically they get worse. Finally, a giant corporation shows up and begins to suck the life out of you, knowing full well that it's your life source and not caring. Then you have a select group of 9 people who fight for you,

Agreed. It's also important to remember that the Weapons attacked us. That wasn't just a vehicle to achieve some bad-ass boss fights, it was part of the storyline. Why did they attack us, if the planet deemed us OK? The answer is that the planet didn't deem us OK.

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To me, if I had a whole species who didn't care about me save for 9 (actually no, it would be 8 since Nanaki isn't human) and the rest couldn't give a damn, I'd be like "screw you people." Indifference can be just as bad as destruction. Some could argue indifference is even worse, since you know what's going on but simply just don't care

Exactly. Though the one thing that throws a wrench in our theory is Holy, and the Lifestream. They both reacted against Meteor, we just don't know if it was effective. We don't know if the image fo Midgar was a freeze-frame of Midgar following a direct strike, or if it was just an abandoned city 500 years after people were saved, and realized that they could not longer live that way.

September 16, 2007, 8:45 PM

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Originally Posted by JDawg

Ronin, it is a pleasure to talk with you. Just when I thought I knew how smart you are, you surprise me yet again. Solid post, man. Again, I do have a couple of points I'd like to talk about, even though I agree with everything else.

Haha, why thank you

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The problem I have with that is every animal is violent. I don't believe we are any more prone to violence than anything else. The difference is that the scope of the violence is far greater, and has even taken a toll on the environment.

Nuh uh! Okay...yeah they are. But as you said, our scope of violence is far greater. Not only do we have the means for greater destruction, but even our "intelligence" allows us to come up with tortures and other things.

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It's true, I agree. I think a central theme of FFVII dealt with Mankind's inability to live in harmony with the planet. Unfortunately, our social structures and rapid population growth make living in a way other than depleting our natural resources very difficult.

You know, in a recent interview with Serj Tankian about his upcoming solo album, he touched on that. He said that civilization is coming to an end because we're depleting our resources so much, and that as a whole species we need to come together and figure out just how we're going to survive without our precious oils and other things. Not like we'll be able to do that, though... Interview here, if you're interested, he doesn't say it till the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIJ8W1o5KI

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Well, to be fair, it's hard to imagine that the developers would get that deep in their message. It's a video game, after all, and happy endings benefit the industry. And the ending we are supposing is the most dire of all endings.

Haha, true, I think a little too much.

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Agreed. It's also important to remember that the Weapons attacked us. That wasn't just a vehicle to achieve some bad-ass boss fights, it was part of the storyline. Why did they attack us, if the planet deemed us OK? The answer is that the planet didn't deem us OK.

Well you got around to mentioning them before I did. People who theorize that humanity lived should remember why the WEAPONS were awoken in the first place. They weren't woken up to defeat ShinRa...they were there to cleanse the world of humans because of the damage they'd caused to the planet. Now I know, I know, it wasn't all the humans that caused the damage. However, ShinRa was a large corporation and I'm sure their history was much like ours and full of war and other things harmful to the planet. The planet wasn't making the discernment between "nice" humans and "bad" humans. It was looking at humanity as a whole, and as a whole humanity had been more harmful than beneficial for the planet.

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Exactly. Though the one thing that throws a wrench in our theory is Holy, and the Lifestream. They both reacted against Meteor, we just don't know if it was effective. We don't know if the image fo Midgar was a freeze-frame of Midgar following a direct strike, or if it was just an abandoned city 500 years after people were saved, and realized that they could not longer live that way.

Well, from the ending in 7 we can see Meteor tearing up Midgar, and when Holy is summoned Nanaki says that Holy is actually having the opposite effect it was supposed to, i.e. it was only amplifying Meteor's destruction of Midgar. Now, as I said in a previous post, given what happened in Mideel when the Lifestream erupted it would make sense that with the entire Lifestream spewing out of the earth it would tear the continents up. That would explain what is seen at the end.

We see Nanaki and his kids running up a large barren cliff to the south of Midgar. South of Midgar wasn't barren, dry rock before. Not only that, but notice there's water surrounding Migdar and flowing into it? That would have to do with the continents (and likely the ecosystem) being changed by the Lifestream.

Now take into consideration the way people are. We are hairless creatures (save for our heads and other small areas), and we are very finicky people when it comes to temperature. We can only be comfortable in a range of about 30 degrees. Now look at animals, they can survive perfectly in climates that we would find unbearable. Likely the entire climate of the planet changed (since the surrounding of Midgar is very lush, almost to the point of being tropical). Even if humanity was spared, it is very likely that they became extinct anyway because they simply couldn't adapt to the changing environment.

*EDIT* And I forgot to post the damn link to the ending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4_sw0trdNc

September 16, 2007, 10:00 PM

Ronin, I agree with JDawg that you make excellent points. However, I want you to go back to the Corel example I mantioned in a previous post. The people of Corel didn't want to do anything with Shinra. They wanted to go on with their peaceful way of life. But some, like Barret, were led to believe that Shinra was the best thing ever to happen. Why is that? Because Shinra lied, the people were misinformed about what the company would do or how that would affect the planet. It's not that the people don't care, they simply didn't know. Ignorance is a great strategy to have people under control. Another case in point: Nibelheim. Something really bad happned there, but Shinra did everything under the son to cover it, and even succeeded. It's also called manipulation.
Also, remember that the whole idea of the lifestream is that it is cycle. All living things come and return to the lifestream. I think that when the "souls" that come from the lifestream live in this world they become enriched with the experiences in this life and when they return to the planet it allows the planet to continue to exist and in turn create new life, which also becomes enriched. Without this enrichment the planet wouldn't be able to mantain itself. Humang beings, being the most sentient of beings (apart from Nanaki's species) bring the most enrichment into the lifestream. So it's kind of like a symbiotic relation. Life needs the planet, the planet needs life. I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

So I believe that the planet would give a second chance to humanity.

September 16, 2007, 10:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Summoner Yuna

Ronin, I agree with JDawg that you make excellent points. However, I want you to go back to the Corel example I mantioned in a previous post. The people of Corel didn't want to do anything with Shinra. They wanted to go on with their peaceful way of life. But some, like Barret, were led to believe that Shinra was the best thing ever to happen. Why is that? Because Shinra lied, the people were misinformed about what the company would do or how that would affect the planet. It's not that the people don't care, they simply didn't know. Ignorance is a great strategy to have people under control.

Corel would be a lesser evil. Yes, they wanted nothing to do with ShinRa. But they were coal miners, they were scarring the planet and using the non-renewable resource of coal as a way of profit. Peaceful people coexisting with the planet would be those who relied on things the planet willingly gives to the people, such as fruits/vegetables, etc. A completely natural existence. Things such as lumber, which are abundant on the surface, would be gray areas. It would be fine to use some trees for the building of little towns, such as Nibelheim. I'm sure the people there needed shelter from cold weather, as they were at the base of those mountains. But once something crosses the line of "needed for survival" to "needed for profit" that's when it stops coexisting with the planet.

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Also, remember that the whole idea of the lifestream is that it is cycle. All living things come and return to the lifestream. I think that when the "souls" that come from the lifestream live in this world they become enriched with the experiences in this life and when they return to the planet it allows the planet to continue to exist and in turn create new life, which also becomes enriched. Without this enrichment the planet wouldn't be able to mantain itself. Humang beings, being the most sentient of beings (apart from Nanaki's species) bring the most enrichment into the lifestream. So it's kind of like a symbiotic relation. Life needs the planet, the planet needs life. I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

So I believe that the planet would give a second chance to humanity.

I never said the planet stops cycling humanity, I don't think it would do that. I'm just saying the planet either directly (through the lifestream) or indirectly killed humanity (through environmental changes). Essentially, by destroying humanity and then rebirthing it 500 years later or whenever, the planet is hitting "restart."

September 16, 2007, 10:57 PM

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Originally Posted by VengefulRonin

Corel would be a lesser evil. Yes, they wanted nothing to do with ShinRa. But they were coal miners, they were scarring the planet and using the non-renewable resource of coal as a way of profit. Peaceful people coexisting with the planet would be those who relied on things the planet willingly gives to the people, such as fruits/vegetables, etc. A completely natural existence. Things such as lumber, which are abundant on the surface, would be gray areas. It would be fine to use some trees for the building of little towns, such as Nibelheim. I'm sure the people there needed shelter from cold weather, as they were at the base of those mountains. But once something crosses the line of "needed for survival" to "needed for profit" that's when it stops coexisting with the planet.

I never said the planet stops cycling humanity, I don't think it would do that. I'm just saying the planet either directly (through the lifestream) or indirectly killed humanity (through environmental changes). Essentially, by destroying humanity and then rebirthing it 500 years later or whenever, the planet is hitting "restart."

Hmmm, I think the people of Corel weren't doing it just for mere profit. They were also doing it for survival. They had coal so they mined that to sell it so they could have food, houses, etc. What did you expect? I don't think that using the planet's resources is a bad thing as long as it isn't overdone or abused. But, like I said, the people of Corel were just doing it to earn a living.
But, I see your point. However, why do you think the planet would hit restart? What's the need of that? I would say that after all the crisis the planet went through, humanity would wisen up a bit. I mean children like Marlene probably learned about it (I bet Barret taught her something) and when she had kids she taught them as well that harming the planet is not beneficial at all. It's all about collective memory in this case, I think.

And I must politely disagree with you that humanity could've been wiped out by weather changes like that. If we see birds and Nanaki, then I believe humans are perfectly capable of leving in that weather. It's not a scorching weather (there's water and plants). I live in a tropical country which is just like that, lol.

September 16, 2007, 11:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Summoner Yuna

Hmmm, I think the people of Corel weren't doing it just for mere profit. They were also doing it for survival. They had coal so they mined that to sell it so they could have food, houses, etc. What did you expect? I don't think that using the planet's resources is a bad thing as long as it isn't overdone or abused. But, like I said, the people of Corel were just doing it to earn a living.

Take into consideration though, WHY did they settle there? Corel was barren. All that was there was coal, no vegetation or anything. But guess what was there? The only entrance into Gold Saucer, the trolley. Logically, that would mean that Corel was a souvenir town, built to capitalize on the tourists going to Gold Saucer and the coal being needed to power the trolley and such.

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But, I see your point. However, why do you think the planet would hit restart? What's the need of that? I would say that after all the crisis the planet went through, humanity would wisen up a bit. I mean children like Marlene probably learned about it (I bet Barret taught her something) and when she had kids she taught them as well that harming the planet is not beneficial at all. It's all about collective memory in this case, I think.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Humanity learning from their mistakes would mean they survived. A collective memory would be similar to instinct or the memories passed through generations of humanity (like in IX), and that would require humanity to be wiped out and subsequently reborn. And it's highly unlikely Marlene survived the devastation that Meteor + Holy wrought on Midgar. Watch the ending again, and note what Cait Sith and Nanaki say. Cait's bleak outlook on what would happen to the slums (where he hid everyone) and Nanaki's comment on forgetting about Midgar and worrying about the entire planet indicate that Midgar was a lost cause and everyone there would be wiped out.

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And I must politely disagree with you that humanity could've been wiped out by weather changes like that. If we see birds and Nanaki, then I believe humans are perfectly capable of leving in that weather. It's not a scorching weather (there's water and plants). I live in a tropical country which is just like that, lol.

But that isn't speaking for the rest of the planet, there's no telling what happened elsewhere. If a place like Midgar was able to turn to tropics, what do you think happened to the rest of the globe? Everything would be thrown out of balance. People can survive in tropics, yes. But the drastic shift in climates would likely be too much for many human bodies to handle simply because we aren't as resilient to weather as other animals.

And with that I leave this topic. I've explained my argument as thoroughly as possible, I state something new building on what I said earlier with each post, but you keep going in circles with your argument and state the same things over and over. I don't like debates like that. I like debates but it's much nicer to debate with someone who thoroughly explains and supports their views and doesn't say the same thing repeatedly.

September 16, 2007, 11:45 PM

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Originally Posted by VengefulRonin

Take into consideration though, WHY did they settle there? Corel was barren. All that was there was coal, no vegetation or anything. But guess what was there? The only entrance into Gold Saucer, the trolley. Logically, that would mean that Corel was a souvenir town, built to capitalize on the tourists going to Gold Saucer and the coal being needed to power the trolley and such.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Humanity learning from their mistakes would mean they survived. A collective memory would be similar to instinct or the memories passed through generations of humanity (like in IX), and that would require humanity to be wiped out and subsequently reborn. And it's highly unlikely Marlene survived the devastation that Meteor + Holy wrought on Midgar. Watch the ending again, and note what Cait Sith and Nanaki say. Cait's bleak outlook on what would happen to the slums (where he hid everyone) and Nanaki's comment on forgetting about Midgar and worrying about the entire planet indicate that Midgar was a lost cause and everyone there would be wiped out.

But that isn't speaking for the rest of the planet, there's no telling what happened elsewhere. If a place like Midgar was able to turn to tropics, what do you think happened to the rest of the globe? Everything would be thrown out of balance. People can survive in tropics, yes. But the drastic shift in climates would likely be too much for many human bodies to handle simply because we aren't as resilient to weather as other animals.

And with that I leave this topic. I've explained my argument as thoroughly as possible, I state something new building on what I said earlier with each post, but you keep going in circles with your argument and state the same things over and over. I don't like debates like that. I like debates but it's much nicer to debate with someone who thoroughly explains and supports their views and doesn't say the same thing repeatedly.

You're accusing me of saying the same things repeatedly, but I could perfectly say the same thing about you.
I'm not contradicting myself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_memory
You said it yourself collective memory are the memories passed through generations, which also help in turn shape the mindset of the current generation. How could that be possible if everyone who lived on the planet got wiped out and then humanity was reborn? It'd be a tabula rasa and history would have to start again. Where are the generations in which this transmission of knowledge occurs? See my point? I hope I explained myself thoroughly.