Interpreting FFVII's ending. - Page 2

September 14, 2007, 3:16 PM

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Originally Posted by VengefulRonin

I do think humanity was wiped out, not by meteor but by the combined effort of Holy and the Lifestream.

There's two explanations for this (or three, if you believe humanity was never wiped out):

1. Red's children are laughing (if Red can talk, I'm sure he can teach his kids...plus Cosmo Canyon's interactions with Red's species suggest that Red isn't the only intelligent one of his kind).

2. Humanity was wiped out, but cycled through the lifestream and was reborn (thus the symbolic laughter).

So who are the others besides Cloud and Co.? Who, praytell? Every other local we see, people are still caught up in themselves, whether it was sunbathing in Costa Del Sol or gambling in Gold Saucer. Either that or they're too scared of Shinra to get out of their town. We have the Shinra corporation, who is pretty large and destroying the planet. Then we have the mass populous who is indifferent. Then last we have Cloud and his ragtag team. If I were the planet, 8 people who cared wouldn't be enough justification for me to save an entire race of beings who didn't care.

Hmmm, interesting views. I think if that were the case, I believe the second option is a quite plausible explanation. Red was growling and so were his cubs, so I don't think the laughter came from them. I like the idea of humanity being wiped out, for then to be reborn.

As for the others who were fighting for the planet, how about the people of Fort Condor? They weren't exactly protecting the planet per se, but they were protecting something that belonged to it.

Also, I don't think that just because all of humanity didn't rebel against Shinra that the planet would wipe it out. I think that the planet made this decision based on how mankind had been up to that point. For example, the people at Corel didn't want anything with Shinra, it was Barret who pushed tha matter and ended up convincing them, even though they were reluctant. See my point? Humanity wasn't harming the planet up to that point. It was Shinra and only Shinra who was the problem. You can't blame the people for being afraid. What could they do? Some of them had no money, or any resources to stand up to a mega corporation, who on top of that had armies of super soldiers.

That's my opinion, so I'd like to know if you or anyone else disagrees with it.

September 14, 2007, 8:37 PM

[quote=eisprinz;206879]Some people think that FFVII is stronger if you believe that humanity gets wiped out by the Lifestream and Holy, because it adds to the theme of the Planet's power overcoming man's attempts to harness nature with machinery. But by only showing the ruins of Midgar 500 years later, this theme gets a buffer whether or not you believe humans disappeared or not.[quote]

It seemed to me that the planet barely had any power left at all, since it had to use pretty much the entire Lifestream in conjunction with Holy to stop Meteor. And if you think about that...what kind of effects would that have on the planet? We saw what happened in Mideel when the Lifestream erupted...so did that happen all over the planet? Maybe the planet did want to save humanity but all the Lifestream coming up caused such an imbalance in climate or who knows what that humans died? Dunno, it's all speculation here. But that's the nice thing about the ending, it allows for speculation, AC trashed that.

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But I can't deny that in some ways, I feel like the scenario with humanity disappearing is an extremely fitting viewpoint, especially in terms of the tragic nature of the game. And if there truly is the sound of children's laughter in the 500 years later video (though I can't remember any), one could hypothesize that it's either Red's cubs laughing, or the sound represents ghosts/memories of humanity.

There is laughter, actually. It's not directly in the video of Red and his cubs, it's once everything blacks out that you hear it. It's on youtube if you wanna see.

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Originally Posted by Summoner Yuna

As for the others who were fighting for the planet, how about the people of Fort Condor? They weren't exactly protecting the planet per se, but they were protecting something that belonged to it.

You know I almost mentioned that in my last post as another example of people who cared, but then I remembered they were partially just trying to protect that materia. After you fight and the baby condor hatches, the guy who hires you tells you that yes, they were trying to protect the condor and not the reactor. But then he goes to say that he sneaked into the reactor and took the materia out and hid it....so he COULD have just handed Shinra the materia so they would go away and leave the condors alone, but he didn't. I don't know, maybe he didn't want Shinra using the materia and that's why he wouldn't give it to them. But that line of thinking would put all of Ft. Condor in danger...weird.

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Also, I don't think that just because all of humanity didn't rebel against Shinra that the planet would wipe it out. I think that the planet made this decision based on how mankind had been up to that point. For example, the people at Corel didn't want anything with Shinra, it was Barret who pushed tha matter and ended up convincing them, even though they were reluctant. See my point? Humanity wasn't harming the planet up to that point. It was Shinra and only Shinra who the problem. You can't blame the people for being afraid. What could they do? Some of them had no money, or any resources to stand up to a mega corporation, who on top of that had armies of super soldiers.

True, true, I see your point. It's understandable that most people were scared and didn't have the recourses needed to fight Shinra. What I'm getting at is that a lot of people seemed to not care one way or the other. You still had people vacationing in Costa del Sol and the Gold Saucer. *shrug* Maybe the planet did save humanity. I just like the idea of it being wiped out because it's not all cliche. But maybe the planet wiped them out anyway, since it realized that the way humans are, even if you wipe out one evil power another will soon rise to take its place.

September 14, 2007, 9:19 PM

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Originally Posted by VengefulRonin

It seemed to me that the planet barely had any power left at all, since it had to use pretty much the entire Lifestream in conjunction with Holy to stop Meteor. And if you think about that...what kind of effects would that have on the planet? We saw what happened in Mideel when the Lifestream erupted...so did that happen all over the planet? Maybe the planet did want to save humanity but all the Lifestream coming up caused such an imbalance in climate or who knows what that humans died? Dunno, it's all speculation here. But that's the nice thing about the ending, it allows for speculation, AC trashed that.

There is laughter, actually. It's not directly in the video of Red and his cubs, it's once everything blacks out that you hear it. It's on youtube if you wanna see.

You know I almost mentioned that in my last post as another example of people who cared, but then I remembered they were partially just trying to protect that materia. After you fight and the baby condor hatches, the guy who hires you tells you that yes, they were trying to protect the condor and not the reactor. But then he goes to say that he sneaked into the reactor and took the materia out and hid it....so he COULD have just handed Shinra the materia so they would go away and leave the condors alone, but he didn't. I don't know, maybe he didn't want Shinra using the materia and that's why he wouldn't give it to them. But that line of thinking would put all of Ft. Condor in danger...weird.

True, true, I see your point. It's understandable that most people were scared and didn't have the recourses needed to fight Shinra. What I'm getting at is that a lot of people seemed to not care one way or the other. You still had people vacationing in Costa del Sol and the Gold Saucer. *shrug* Maybe the planet did save humanity. I just like the idea of it being wiped out because it's not all cliche. But maybe the planet wiped them out anyway, since it realized that the way humans are, even if you wipe out one evil power another will soon rise to take its place.

Good points. In my case, I like to think that humanity wasn't wiped out or at least if it was, it was reborn for the following reason: thinking that humanity is bad or that it should be destroyed just because some people are rotten cases, like I mentioned in an earlier post it's categorizing everyone under the same banner, and I think it's a pretty self-destructive and pessimistic view on the essence of humanity. I like to believe that humanity (or any other species for that matter) can learn from their mistakes and move on and make a better future for itself. There's a Chinese saying that says there's hope and opportunity hidden in a crisis (I don't know if it's actually Chinese or not but it's definitely from the Eastern hemisphere). The planet's crisis was the opportunity of mankind to reflect upon itself and redirect its path to a more harmonious way of life. Costa del Sol is nothing more than a turist attraction, same as the Gold Saucer, but I'm pretty sure that towns like Corel, Rocket Town, etc. cared, however they didn't have the means to fight back (only Cid actively joined the party because it affected him in a more personal way).

Well, I've ranted enough. Sorry if that was long. I tend to get pretty philosophical with this kind of things.

September 14, 2007, 9:20 PM

This has to be the best thread on this website. Just fantastic efforts all around. Great job, guys.

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It seemed to me that the planet barely had any power left at all, since it had to use pretty much the entire Lifestream in conjunction with Holy to stop Meteor. And if you think about that...what kind of effects would that have on the planet? We saw what happened in Mideel when the Lifestream erupted...so did that happen all over the planet? Maybe the planet did want to save humanity but all the Lifestream coming up caused such an imbalance in climate or who knows what that humans died? Dunno, it's all speculation here. But that's the nice thing about the ending, it allows for speculation, AC trashed that.

Great points. The game was so consistant throughout that it makes me want to believe that humanity is gone, and, as you said in an earlier post, that the laughter at the end was symbolic...or even the laughter of his cubs.

What makes this game so great is that once it is all over, and the final cutscene ends, only then does the full meaning become clear. I agree with you guys that the ending is subjective, and can be taken a few different ways, and there's nothing wrong with believing any of the possible endings, but I think that if you look at the facts, you'll see that humanity kind of had to go. They were the ones to harness the Lifestream and injure the planet, they were the ones to cause the Planet to awaken the the Weapons, and they were the ones to bring about Meteor.

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You know I almost mentioned that in my last post as another example of people who cared, but then I remembered they were partially just trying to protect that materia. After you fight and the baby condor hatches, the guy who hires you tells you that yes, they were trying to protect the condor and not the reactor. But then he goes to say that he sneaked into the reactor and took the materia out and hid it....so he COULD have just handed Shinra the materia so they would go away and leave the condors alone, but he didn't. I don't know, maybe he didn't want Shinra using the materia and that's why he wouldn't give it to them. But that line of thinking would put all of Ft. Condor in danger...weird.

Another sound point. I think it's pretty obvious that the crew at Square begins every Final Fantasy with a theme in mind, and in the case of VII, it was the greed and often evil nature of humanity. If you think of it like that, then Weapon attacking Junon takes on a different light, doesn't it? Now it isn't a wayward monster, or the Planet being evil, it is the planet protecting itself, and the rest of life on the planet, from US.

Anyway, to your point, the scene at Fort Condor illustrates this perfectly: They are protecting MATERIA, not the planet. Materia is Man's effort to harness the lifestream for use in war, a tool to bring more power to humanity.

The Planet was the star of the game, keep that in mind. And I think it is important to note that even with the laughter at the final cutscene, you don't actually see any people. I don't think that was a mistake. I think it was intended to mean something.

Oh, and also important to remember is that with Aeris dead, the Cetra are now no more. Something to keep in mind, at least.

September 14, 2007, 9:29 PM

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Originally Posted by JDawg

Anyway, to your point, the scene at Fort Condor illustrates this perfectly: They are protecting MATERIA, not the planet. Materia is Man's effort to harness the lifestream for use in war, a tool to bring more power to humanity.

Hmm, good point, but if you think about it they wanted to protect the Materia from the true evil, Shinra, so it wasn't for selfish reasons, and they did truly wanted to protect the condors.

September 15, 2007, 4:50 AM

I remember reading an article that said that once Aerith died, the game was pretty much over because she was basically humanities last hope or something like that. It's been a loooooooooooong time since I've come across it.

This is why I like FFVII. It doesn't have an ending where everyone lives happily ever after if you believe that humanity was wiped out, which is why who ever Cloud loved wouldn't even make a difference, because there is no time for either relationship to really progress. But this is reserved for another thread.

So if humanity was wiped out right before the credits, what exactly happened to the Highwind? Did it just fall?

And I don't know if I've said this before, but I don't think Cloud and co efforts were all for nothing if humanity was wiped out. They would have simply returned to the lifestream which I guess in some way they would still be alive, just not as Cloud, Tifa, Barret ect... and eventually they would have been reborn.

If the planet would have been destroyed by meteor, then they truly would have died.

September 15, 2007, 8:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Summoner Yuna

Good points. In my case, I like to think that humanity wasn't wiped out or at least if it was, it was reborn for the following reason: thinking that humanity is bad or that it should be destroyed just because some people are rotten cases, like I mentioned in an earlier post it's categorizing everyone under the same banner, and I think it's a pretty self-destructive and pessimistic view on the essence of humanity. I like to believe that humanity (or any other species for that matter) can learn from their mistakes and move on and make a better future for itself.

Ha, yeah right. While humanity has the highest level of consciousness of any animal, we are the most violent and destructive. In the few thousand years we've been around, we've constantly warred with each other, and as technology heightens we also destroy ourselves with processed foods and conveniences, not to mention we're depleting our natural resources and destroying the environment (especially China). Midgar, being the cyberpunk setting that it was, represented the breaking point of this.

The game shows the planet to be an entity with at least some level of consciousness, as it can actively decide to save humanity or not. But that doesn't mean the planet is benevolent and willing to dish out second chances. If VII was meant to parallel our world (and I think it is), it shows that the further technology grows the more resources we drain from the planet. It's inevitable that over the course of humanity's existence the planet would realize that it was simply not in the interest of survival that it keep humanity alive.

September 16, 2007, 5:18 PM

Ronin, I usually agree with everything you say, but a quick little thing here...

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we are the most violent and destructive. In the few thousand years we've been around, we've constantly warred with each other, and as technology heightens we also destroy ourselves with processed foods and conveniences, not to mention we're depleting our natural resources and destroying the environment (especially China)

Our violence is no more common than that of any other animal, it is only magnified by the fact that we are so self-aware, and so advanced technologically. Otherwise, every animal in the kingdom is as violent as we are. Moreso, even. Destructive? No, but that is only because we are so advanced.

And China has yet to overtake the US in greenhouse gas emisisons, so the US is still destroying the environment more than China. For now.

Back on topic! Here we go:

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The game shows the planet to be an entity with at least some level of consciousness, as it can actively decide to save humanity or not. But that doesn't mean the planet is benevolent and willing to dish out second chances. If VII was meant to parallel our world (and I think it is), it shows that the further technology grows the more resources we drain from the planet. It's inevitable that over the course of humanity's existence the planet would realize that it was simply not in the interest of survival that it keep humanity alive.

That I agree with. I think it is clear througout the game that the Planet is actively trying to rid itself of us. And notice that aside from Avalanch, most everyone else you speak to in the world has a "Who cares" attitude towards Shin-Ra. And even if they do care, they still don't do anything about it, because it would mean losing those comforts they hold so dear...which is a parallel of humanity in real life.

But again, I think the added laughter at the end is probably supposed to make the ending a subjective thing. And Humanity has survived some serious stuff, so maybe they survived this.