Cloud and Tifa were child hood friends. The way I see it, that's all there ever was.

Of course Aerith had feelings for Zack, that was her boyfriend. Then along came Cloud, who reminded Aerith of Zack. Aerith was intrigued by Cloud, because not much was known about him. I think if she lived, they would of been together.

Aerith was such a free spirit, and Cloud was a lost soul. They would of been perfect together

See, it's posts like the one above that truly get to me. It's the way people simply brush off everything that happened between chars in one simple sentence, namely the first one in the previous post.

They throw in a few 'facts', all based on their own opinion/view, then draw a completely baseless statement from it.

Since this is a debate thread, I would like to show all how one would refute/argue against such a post. Maleficient, maybe you can use my post here to help you modify and reinforce your argument, thus making it stronger and able to stand up in a true debate without being bombarded by opposition.

Were I really feeling like debating, I would ask "How is Cloud a lost soul?" Give me some kind of inkling at what you're getting at here. It's simply too vague. Also, how is Aerith a free spirit? (btw, I personally wouldn't use that term. It has other meanings that others would use against you.....just an fyi). Once you've laid that out, explain how this would make them perfect for each other.

I don't think there's a real need to explain the whole relationship b/w Aerith and Zack. It's a love triangle not a love square. You shouldn't have to explain it, and if people bring it up, well you know you're just smarter and can afford to ignore them.

Next, now this a is a big step, you must explain clearly how Cloud and Tifa were only 'friends'. As a Clifa myself, I can think of many things of where their relationship seems to be anything but mere 'friends'. Also, you've made another common mistake, which no one can blame you for, but Cloud and Tifa were not childhood friends. They actually didn't know each other that well.

You see, these are things that you really have to think about. Also keep in mind that you cannot 'ignore' all evidence the oppostition presents. You must concede that, indeed, this is possible or this is possible etc. etc. But then explain how you percieve it. That's what this debate is really about.

So, with this in mind, you can start to forge a truly good post that's not offensive and states your opinion clearly with little room for opposition.

May you post well!

Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

I don't think there's a real need to explain the whole relationship b/w Aerith and Zack. It's a love triangle not a love square.

Exactly, It's pretty clear that Aerith loves Cloud, for Cloud not just because of Zack, although his similarity to Zack is what initially attracts her to him, she sees the real Cloud persona and falls in love with that.

There is strong evidence for both girls, weak evidence for both girls, batshit crazy evidence, and ridiculous excuses for why some of the more obvious pieces of evidences aren't accepted.

There are a few peices of "evidence" and debating lines that bug the hell outta me.

1. Aerith is dead, so Cloud HAS to Love Tifa.

Would you stop loving your parents if they died? Would you stop loving your husband/Wife if they died? No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't move onto the next person who showed some interest in you either. Cloud can (and from my viewpoint of the LTD, does) carry on loving Aerith, and - as shown in AC - since it is plausible for them to meet and talk to each other, he still has some form of emotional contact with her, and doesn't have to give it up or pursue a relationship with anyone else.

2. Tifa was Clouds childhood friend.

I really can't agree with that line, shown in Clouds flashback Tifa was Queen of the Clique and had no time for Cloud, he's even blamed for Tifa falling into a coma, and is forbidden from seeing her again.

3. OMFG Aerith is hawter than Tifa! Tifa has the B00borz! Tifa Can kick Aeriths ass! Aerith can Kick Tifas butt!...and so on.

All of these are things that silly fanboys attempt to bring into an LTD, which is totally irrelevant, Their skills in battle and their looks mean nothing to whom Cloud loves.

4. Tifa is a slut!

See number 3. And, just because Tifa might dress a little sluttish, it doesn't make her one.

5. Aerith is a Homewrecker / Hippie!

For her to "wreck a home" there has to be a home for her to wreck, and in FFVII, there is no way Tifa and Cloud can be described as living together. As for her being a hippie, most of the main characters in FFVII are hippies since they want to "save the world and stop pollution" and all that, and again, see number 3.


More later...as i'm basing this post on next-to-none replies.

I recently read the maiden who travels the planet (fanx moonchild for the link) Iv no idea wether it's fan based or not but that kinda confirms that Aeris loved Cloud for Cloud and that's how I see it aswel

It's not fanbased, it was written by someone connected to the team and has been accepted by all the FFVII staff as canon

Ahhhhh thanks, so then, Aeris loves Cloud for who he is nuff said lol

Yes i agree with that. Aerith and Cloud seem to have a more romantic vibe than Cloud and Tifa, and they have the whole "tragic love" thing going for them, which i adore

In my opinion, cloud and Tifa are more like siblings, they look out for one another, care for one another, yet they don't reveal any of their intermost thoughts and feelings to each other, Cloud never told Tifa he had the Stigma, while Tifa hasn't ever told Cloud how she feels for him. They've known each other for years and years, and yet theres been no romantic progression between the two.

Originally Posted by Aerith Gainsborough

Exactly, It's pretty clear that Aerith loves Cloud, for Cloud not just because of Zack, although his similarity to Zack is what initially attracts her to him, she sees the real Cloud persona and falls in love with that.

Not according to Maiden. The Cloud Aeris loves is the one built from Zack who she thinks is the real Cloud. It's not till she's dead does she realise the Cloud she romantically loved was the Cloud who was based on false memories and ideologies induced from strong JENOVA influences and a desire to be a hero like Zack. She does love the real Cloud, but from this point on her love seems to be that of a protective guardian or a mother for her children; a purer unearthly love, not a romantic one.

I agree its important that people understand that Aeris knows the real Cloud, but if we take Maiden as canon - which that alone is dubious as Ultimania has made no reference to it in its compendeum of character releavant information - the whole point of the story is Aeris as a protagonist who shifts from her initial earthy romantic love for Cloud to one of a larger, altruistic, pure, unselfish love.

1. Aerith is dead, so Cloud HAS to Love Tifa.

Would you stop loving your parents if they died? Would you stop loving your husband/Wife if they died? No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't move onto the next person who showed some interest in you either. Cloud can (and from my viewpoint of the LTD, does) carry on loving Aerith, and - as shown in AC - since it is plausible for them to meet and talk to each other, he still has some form of emotional contact with her, and doesn't have to give it up or pursue a relationship with anyone else.

I think he can love Aeris, I agree, I think if we are looking at breaking down misconceptions, it doesn't mean he does love Aeris in a romantic sense - and Ultimania makes it pretty clear there is no definitive romantic slant to Cloud's feelings by clarifying he neither reconginizes either Tifa or Aeris' affections on disk one, that he taking on Zack's attributes, and he is heavily influenced by JENOVA - which all makes any pure romantic feelings rather difficult to justify! Given that we also now know that Aeris wears pink in memory - or even hope - of Zack's return, and suddenly the whole idea of "romantic" love starts to weaken; Cloud isn't in a position to give love and Aeris' feelings are - at this point - carried over from her feelings for Zack, which she sees in Cloud.

So I agree, the notion that because Aeris is dead, Cloud HAS to be with Tifa is a silly one, but not for the same reason. Cloud is with Tifa because she's always been his world - and when his personality and memory return, she is his world once more.

If you are suggesting he can romantically love both, like a man can love his second wife and his dead one, that's a rational observation, but doesn't really tie in with FF7 since there is a) no definitive evidence of romance from Cloud to Aeris and b) the time frame for the who FF7 is very short for a romantic adventure - the whole thing - from start to finish is in 6 weeks according to Ultimania, certainly not as long as I expected!

2. Tifa was Clouds childhood friend.

I really can't agree with that line, shown in Clouds flashback Tifa was Queen of the Clique and had no time for Cloud, he's even blamed for Tifa falling into a coma, and is forbidden from seeing her again.

I agree. It's just a simple description in an instruction manual to give the audience a flavour of their connection as FF7 starts. She and he knew each other in their childhood, ergo, childhood friend.

I do find it funny however, how the rational and valid point you make is often used to disprove Cloud and Tifa by the fact it was lazily added to the DoC manual - thereby proving they are not in a relationship but still childhood friends, despite the same people being very quick to dismiss their childhood friendship on the rational you offer. Of course, the fact that DOC manual also still calls Cloud ex-SOLDIER doesn't really show how lazily the manual details are ported for minor characters.

3. OMFG Aerith is hawter than Tifa! Tifa has the B00borz! Tifa Can kick Aeriths ass! Aerith can Kick Tifas butt!...and so on.

All of these are things that silly fanboys attempt to bring into an LTD, which is totally irrelevant, Their skills in battle and their looks mean nothing to whom Cloud loves.

Absolutely!

4. Tifa is a slut!

See number 3. And, just because Tifa might dress a little sluttish, it doesn't make her one.

Absolutely. And just because Aeris wears pink and picks flowers doesn't make her independent and pretty forward in her relationships (forward doesn't mean sluttish BTW, just very open about what she feels).

Though the slut angle has made a return in some circles given Nomura's confirmation that the "Under the Highwind" scene had sexual intent, and I know a few people of Cleris and Cloti persuasion have shown a lack of empathy into the reasons why they'd sleep together before Armageddon to pronounce such as slutty.

5. Aerith is a Homewrecker / Hippie!

For her to "wreck a home" there has to be a home for her to wreck, and in FFVII, there is no way Tifa and Cloud can be described as living together. As for her being a hippie, most of the main characters in FFVII are hippies since they want to "save the world and stop pollution" and all that, and again, see number 3.

Again, I agree. I don't actually see this point ever being used though. I've seen few say Aeris is a homewrecker simply because she doesn't wreck anything. Cloud doesn't know his feelings for Tifa in FF7, and even Tifa isn't sure how Cloud feels, so how can Aeris be accused of being a homewrecker? I've never heard this, but its a silly notion. Just as silly as those who suggest Tifa is the "runner up prize" or "sloppy seconds"! Believe it or not, I've seen both suggestions!

Yes i agree with that. Aerith and Cloud seem to have a more romantic vibe than Cloud and Tifa, and they have the whole "tragic love" thing going for them, which i adore

I disagree. They have a stable and quite boring, normal relationship, which only gets bad because of Cloud's pain - and even then its not for a long period - he only spends 2 days away from the house when AC occurs and resolves this problem.

In my opinion, cloud and Tifa are more like siblings, they look out for one another, care for one another, yet they don't reveal any of their intermost thoughts and feelings to each other,

Oh, I disagree there. Normally they do tell each other everything. Look at the Case of Tifa flashbacks, they are very honest with each other. It's only when Cloud suffers from his guilt once more, that he starts to get distant, and many people who suffer from traumatic depression do the same - it's not about the relationship, as its internal and thereby can only be sorted out primarily by oneself.

Cloud never told Tifa he had the Stigma, while Tifa hasn't ever told Cloud how she feels for him.

Yes she did. Actions speak more than words is the FF7 resolution to their lack of vocal honesty; that love doesn't have to be said, it can be shown through ones actions. Not just the sexual encounter under the Highwind but through what we do and how we act as people. He doesn't tell her about the Stigma because he's protecting his family from his pain. He feels being distant from them serves them because he is useless and thereby doesn't deserve them.

Again I must quote Ultimania and the AC DVD where its stated that the happy Cloud gets, the guiltier her feels. He doesn't feel he deserves Tifa and his family, because he's failed so many before him and he's convinced he'll fail them as he did Aeris and Zack. So the happier he feels the more guilty he feels happy, the more distant he gets. Again, this is the official Ultimania companion.

They've known each other for years and years, and yet theres been no romantic progression between the two.

I don't think you can suggest that at all. Cloud's promise to Tifa was precious to him while he was in Shinra (Ultimania/BC), his shame prevents him from seeing her at Nibelheim (LO) but eventually Tifa's experience of CLoud's inner most suppressed and tender memories about her (FF7) reveals the truth to her, and then she expresses her feelings to him under the Highwind (FF7) to which they both then express their feelings through their risque actions (Ultimania - Nomura) which were initially going to be far more explicit (thank god they weren't! - again, Nomura).

Cloud then asks Tifa to live with him and he'll never leave her (Case of Tifa), which she agrees and they start a life together. They are happy and they start at adopted family, which both conclude that Denizel is a gift (or blessing - Maiden has Aeris' giving her blessing to Cloud and Tifa's future together at the end) to them from Aeris (Case of Tifa).

The notion that someone Cloud has failed has given him again something so special (his family), sends Cloud away from the house. He goes to the church in Advent Children looking for forgiveness because he feels guilty and unworthy of happiness (Ultimania/Advent Children).

Through the forgiveness of Aeris (Nojima) and the help of Vincent (I believe that was confirmed by Nomura, but I may be wrong) and Tifa (Advent Children, her words are playing though Cloud's mind in the Forgotten City) he comes back to the Edge with a weight lifted from his shoulders (he is no longer guilty and willing to fight for what he loves rather than run away). The ending resolves with Aeris once again giving Cloud back to Tifa and his family altruistically because its not his time to die. He can now face his guilt and sees Zack and Aeris for the first time (and I recall there is a quote somewhere that confirms the visions of Aeris in AC are the first he encountered, its not a regular thing).

The script confirms he does not meet Aeris in the flowerfield, that his final smile is at Tifa (for which the music was written for), showing the status quo has been established and their relationship is back on tracks. Finally Nomura has confirmed they are in a mutual romantic relationship in Advent Children, so there is no doubt their dynamic has progressed since FF7.

I'm sorry if that was long, but I felt I needed to clarify where I think you are in error with that last premise along with the evidence that supports my comment.

Peace.