Art: Who does it belong to?

March 5, 2008, 8:06 AM

Okay, I'm a total art nerd, so I care about this stuff. I'm not sure many other people do, but if so, reply to this topic!

There was an article in Time Magazine this week discussing this topic, and it's something that I think is rather important. There are a lot of precious works of art (ruins, statues, paintings, etc) that are in museums far from their home countries. A majority of these pieces of art have questionable recent histories. Many are from old excavations and were taken without the permission of the country in which they were found.

Examples of this include many of the Egyptian artifacts/mummies and Greecian ruins/statues in the British Museum. Both countries have requested that the artifacts be returned.

What do you think? Who should have claim to these pieces of art? Do they belong in the museums of the home countries, or should people around the world have the chance to see them?

March 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

Hmm...this is a tough one. Certainly their proper place is back in their respective countries, but they also deserve to be seen. I think though, that it'd be acceptable if said items were found on legitimate digs. Of course, they could also work out some sort of deal with the items' respective countries where they'd give them back ownership if they let the items go on tours to museums every once in a while. Not the most moral stance, I know, but the world at large can benefit more from the items being on display than their countries hoarding them.

March 5, 2008, 8:18 AM

Quote:

Greecian ruins/statues in the British Museum

the Elgin marbles, which inspired keats, so, i think art should belong to the people, so everyone can see it, not just to museums or countries, but to everyone who wants to see it, to experience art's power.

March 5, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VengefulRonin

Hmm...this is a tough one. Certainly their proper place is back in their respective countries, but they also deserve to be seen. I think though, that it'd be acceptable if said items were found on legitimate digs. Of course, they could also work out some sort of deal with the items' respective countries where they'd give them back ownership if they let the items go on tours to museums every once in a while. Not the most moral stance, I know, but the world at large can benefit more from the items being on display than their countries hoarding them.

I agree with VR, although I think the country of origin should have them back I also think people should be able to see the artifacts and whatnot, I know I won't be able to travel to Egypt, probably at all lol and ancient Egypt is something that facinates me so I would love to be able to see some of this stuff.

So, exhibits going on tour seems like a great idea

After all, if they were never uncovered on digs and shizz, would they have ever even been found?

Compromise is the way forward me thinks

March 6, 2008, 1:32 AM

Hmm. This is interesting. I've never actually thought about this before, but it is a tough subject.

Well, if the countries requested that the artifacts be returned to them, then by the values of tradition they should be given that right, especially if the other country took said artifacts without permission.

However, it becomes more complicated if someone from Greece found an artifact or what have you, in an inhabited area, hence the item solely belongs to him. Now, let's say he sells this item to make a fortune, and he happens to sell it to a British person. Now, the item would rightfully belong to the British guy, correct? And so, if he decides to have it displayed in a museum, then I believe that is a valid and legal action. The origin of the item would still be valued, I'm sure, but Greece shouldn't be able to reclaim the item by a mere request, unless there is a price at stake. Sure, the item may not be part of their history, but the possession would rightfully be theirs. (British).

Anyway, I do believe that people should be given a chance to see them in museums because the item screams, "HISTORY" and we all know how humans can be so fascinated with the subject. These artifacts holds sentimental values to the country that it originally belonged to, yes, so I also do understand if the country would like those items returned. However, I do think that it is much, much more valuable and sentimental if the items were to be displayed in a museum of the country it originated from. Like I said, traditional values. I don't know, just the idea gives off that much more "meaningful" touch to the whole case.

March 6, 2008, 9:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitsuki

However, it becomes more complicated if someone from Greece found an artifact or what have you, in an inhabited area, hence the item solely belongs to him. Now, let's say he sells this item to make a fortune, and he happens to sell it to a British person. Now, the item would rightfully belong to the British guy, correct? And so, if he decides to have it displayed in a museum, then I believe that is a valid and legal action. The origin of the item would still be valued, I'm sure, but Greece shouldn't be able to reclaim the item by a mere request, unless there is a price at stake. Sure, the item may not be part of their history, but the possession would rightfully be theirs. (British).

Actually, this sort of thing has been happening to some museums. Some artifacts they purchased and thought were legal have been uncovered as stolen goods. As a result, the museums have to return them to the country of origin. Museums are now being much, much more careful about what artifacts they purchase, and are looking for, as the article says, "a documented ownership trail longer than an Old Testament genealogy and much more credible." It really sucks for the museum, but the country of origin is also a victim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Placebo

the Elgin marbles, which inspired keats, so, i think art should belong to the people, so everyone can see it, not just to museums or countries, but to everyone who wants to see it, to experience art's power

Yes, those are in the long list of things that Greece would like returned. However, since they were taken so long ago, modern law does not apply, and Britain is not legally bound to return them. I remember visiting Greece, and one of the tour guides made a rather unamused comment about how a good deal of ruins were located in Britain. I agree that art really should belong to everyone, but the Elgin ruins (along with other pieces of art) cannot be in two places at once. So ultimately, the question must be asked: do they belong in the British Museum or in Greece?

Personally, I think many of the items in question should be returned to the countries of origin. I remember going to the British Museum and asking myself multiple times, "But what here is actually British?" It seemed as though everything in the museum was from a different country. I think it's wrong that a lot of those items were taken from a foreign country without permission. I was revolted by the mummies especially. I know the Egyptians have a deep respect for the dead, and here were several mummies out in glass cases, some of them in various states of unwrap. Additionally, people were posing with them as if they were some sort of sideshow attraction. The British Museum isn't the only one guilty of this; I saw it in the Louvre too. It seemed extremely disrespectful of both the dead and the culture they are from. I'm not sure if times have changed (they may have, correct me if I'm wrong), but in the Egyptian museums, they don't display mummies out in the open like that. Additionally, many of these "archaeological digs" were nothing more than simple plundering. Take a look at King Tut's treasure. Lord Carnarvon and Howard Carter just went right in, seemingly without too much regard for the welfare of the pyramid, took the loot, and went on their merry way with it. That's wonderful, but it wasn't theirs to take. In fact, it was extremely disrespectful of them to break into a tomb in the first place. Never mind the fact that they took all of the treasure out of the country. So yes, I think the countries of origin have perfectly legitimate claims to these artifacts. I think that the artifacts should be shipped back to their countries of origin and then loaned to other countries for periods of time or traded/sold at the discretion of the museum/country. It's only fair.

March 6, 2008, 9:59 AM

but it makes more sense to have art at places where its more likely to be seen, perhaps the british museum could return some of the art and other things and keep some of the others, but pay x% of the profit to the country where the art comes from, that would keep everybody happy, hopefully.
i assumed that more people visit the british museum then visit museums in greece. therefore it would make sense to keep it in Britain.

Quote:

artifact or what have you, in an inhabited area, hence the item solely belongs to him. Now, let's say he sells this item to make a fortune, and he happens to sell it to a British person. Now, the item would rightfully belong to the British guy, correct?

but say a corupt government official sells it, against the will of the people, by right it belongs to the buyer, but did the seller have any right to sell it?

Also there is the whole question of who actually owns anything found.
ie say an american funds an expedition to try find tombs in egypt and they find some very valuable stuff, does that stuff belong to the american or to Egypt?

i think the whole issue is a matter of opinion, which means any decision would have to be impartial

March 7, 2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Placebo

but say a corupt government official sells it, against the will of the people, by right it belongs to the buyer, but did the seller have any right to sell it?

Well no, the seller didn't have any right to sell it if that is the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Placebo

Also there is the whole question of who actually owns anything found.
ie say an american funds an expedition to try find tombs in egypt and they find some very valuable stuff, does that stuff belong to the american or to Egypt?

Yes, there is that too. Like I said, there are various complications when it comes to the question of "who is the rightful owner?" And just as you stated, it is probably a case of people's opinions more than anything, and yet there are also some cases where the answer is quite obvious. As for the answer, gosh I don't know. Me personally, I think it doesn't belong to anybody - it belongs to the rest of the world, as part of world's history.

Anyway, I know a few others already suggested "exhibits" and I think that is the best solution. Have a few items (the not-so-sacred ones, but still valuable anyway) go back and forth throughout various museums in the world...that way many people can see them. As for those really important artifacts that is very sacred to its country's origin, perhaps it should permanently stay where it originated from - assuming that there are no strings attached.